Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Kim Peckham
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000277B
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00:03 Welcome back to the "Liberty Insider."
00:05 Before the break 00:06 we were getting into heavy stuff 00:08 as a result of heavy stuff in Paris, right? 00:12 I don't think the world generally 00:14 is gonna be quite the same after this 00:17 and certainly in regard to religious expression 00:21 and dialogue between religions. 00:22 It's poisoned the atmosphere, hasn't it? 00:24 We had a lot of smaller events 00:27 happening between Muslim populations 00:29 and the general population of Europe. 00:31 But this is a big one. 00:33 I mean, this is not quite a 9/11 in the sense, 00:36 I mean a 9/11 in the sense 00:38 that we had here in 2001 00:41 but it is for them a very big event. 00:45 Well, I think it hits them on several levels. 00:48 The level we had been talking about is free speech, 00:51 free religious speech 00:53 but on the other level which went along with it 00:55 the commando style violence that came in response to that. 01:01 How does any open society defend against that? 01:04 So it is like the twin towers coming down. 01:06 It's the idea that you are not safe 01:08 in your own house anymore. 01:09 Yeah, that's the worst thing 01:11 you can do to upset a population. 01:14 Which is through terrorism. 01:16 For they are going for I guess. 01:18 Yes. 01:19 And you know, we need to say for those of our viewers 01:22 that maybe not totally familiar with the story. 01:25 Well, this is connected to ISIL 01:31 and the whole Middle Eastern affair 01:33 at the same time there is a parallel story 01:36 of these young fellows that they were 01:40 disadvantaged, disenfranchised 01:44 young men growing up in Paris 01:46 that were really criminals early on 01:47 until radical Islam sort of gave them an output 01:52 for this dysfunction. 01:53 So this isn't just the story of 01:57 wrong headed Islam versus insulting Christianity. 02:02 Yes, true and that you might have 02:03 find parallels even in America 02:06 where the young man who tried to find meaning 02:08 and direction in the-- 02:09 Well, I can tell you this, 02:11 the parallel of America is Ku Klux Klan. 02:14 The Ku Klux Klan has its, 02:17 is its major tenant white Protestant America 02:23 which is sort of sinister in a certain way 02:26 but the way it worked out 02:27 it was the gathering point for people 02:30 that like to go out lynching and causing modern day mayhem 02:34 it was the gathering point for people. 02:36 It had just a free floating bigotry and so on. 02:44 So you know, how do you separate 02:46 the whole Ku Klux Klan phenomenon from working class 02:50 bigoted narrow neighborhoods, 02:52 you know, that really won't progressive 02:53 for any general sense 02:55 but here this is the conduce 02:57 that's like they come into their own 02:58 or the other one in America. 03:00 There is a huge problem in the United States 03:02 as in France for that matter 03:04 but we know it in the US 03:05 the huge problem within the prisons 03:08 where they recruited for radical Islam. 03:11 I know I've read long articles on this 03:13 and I thought long and hard about it 03:15 that you have violent socially dislocated individuals 03:20 who then are contacted 03:22 and they are given sort of a ticket to indulge that. 03:24 Now it's called religion. Right. 03:26 Yeah, they have found meaning, they found redemption 03:30 and over their past sins and what happened in the past. 03:34 But they were-- 03:35 these guys had fully evidence, these were violent, 03:38 criminally inspired or inclined fellows 03:41 even before radical Islam got a hold of them. 03:44 So its not quite to fair to blame all of it on Islam 03:47 but there were things in Islam 03:50 both in the Quran and Middle Eastern 03:54 goings on that sort of resonated with them 03:56 and they were been on a mission. 03:59 Now what would you say to people 04:00 who say that Islam the belief 04:06 actually encourages this kind of violence more so 04:10 than a conversion with of a Christian or a Jew 04:14 if they had conversions. 04:15 Well, I can say it on this program 04:17 but I have to preface it by this program 04:19 is about religious liberty. 04:21 So there is a difference and I hope our viewers see this 04:25 on the verse restated 04:27 the principle of religious liberty 04:29 has to mean that its creatures of a God 04:32 created for free thought and for self-determination 04:37 obviously that can't be fulfilled 04:39 without reaching toward God. 04:41 We have to allow everybody 04:43 to take their own spiritual journey 04:45 and respect it, and allow it 04:47 unless it's turn out on other creatures 04:52 and causes them harm or violence, right. 04:55 That's a given and I've often said 04:57 I had to be prepared 04:59 to defend your right to believe something 05:02 I find out noxious to the death of possible, 05:04 my death, right but people don't like that idea. 05:07 No. 05:09 If it became a popular 05:10 and for standing up for religious liberty 05:12 I need to persist in that 05:14 even though your belief system might turn my stomach. 05:18 When we're just describing in an objective fashion 05:22 as I could as a western Christian 05:26 obviously I bring biases, the run away assumptions. 05:29 But looked at it as logically 05:30 as I can and like you have read the Quran. 05:33 I think the service 05:35 is being made to the public sensibility 05:38 by denials that Jihad is in the Quran. 05:41 It's not just in the Quran it rides the wave of the Quran. 05:46 There are hadiths which are like the gospel accounts 05:51 that are in the Bible 05:53 but they are part of the holy writings of Islam 05:55 but they are not the Quran. 05:56 They are whole at least on Jihad 05:59 and you can allow that in different time 06:01 and I've talked to Muslim theologians. 06:03 Clearly at times Islam was under threat 06:05 that felt threatened, 06:06 other times there were leaders who were aggressive 06:09 and the felt the need to enlarge it by the sword 06:12 which is the symbol of Saudi Arabia and other country. 06:14 Fine, that's a matter of their history 06:16 but to say it doesn't exist has to been nonsensical. 06:20 It is a legitimate part of Quranic 06:24 and traditional instructions of Islam 06:29 and we should acknowledge that. 06:31 What I think is General El-Sisi of Egypt 06:36 said to his own spiritual leaders recently 06:39 its time for the leaders of that religion 06:43 to realize that in the modern world 06:44 that can't be indulged 06:47 and that it needs to be explained to the faithful 06:49 who follow the lead of Imams and other people 06:52 but this is not acceptable now. 06:54 Just because its, the religion calls you too 06:56 it it's not acceptable. 06:59 You know, you could have religions just as easy, 07:01 its been a few of them in the past 07:02 that says like in India 07:07 they used to have derive from religions sati 07:10 where the wife had to be burned alive with the husband. 07:14 Well, England restricted that at great length 07:16 because yes, their belief called into that 07:19 but the society which respected human life 07:22 and interaction is people is not gonna allow it. 07:25 And I think in some regards 07:27 Islam needs to where face the music 07:31 and make that decision for themselves. 07:34 If it's forced on them its wrong. 07:37 Well, it seems like 07:39 that's a lot to wish for that they can-- 07:40 It's a lot for wish for and may be never happen. 07:44 But to deny that fact is not good. 07:47 The word Islam means submission 07:50 and I have yet to hear someone that acknowledges 07:52 that so as peace. 07:54 It doesn't mean that. 07:55 Hopefully Islamic faith as well as Christian faith 08:00 or Buddhism, Hinduism to a true hears 08:02 in will mean peace and fulfillment so on. 08:06 Of course, that's the aim of whole spirituality. 08:09 But we need to keep to the facts 08:11 and looks at things logically. 08:13 And I've written in Liberty Magazine 08:16 and on one level I'm very sympathetic to Islam. 08:20 I had many talks with Muslims 08:22 but I think the writings have come down 08:24 to them contain-- 08:30 they just contain suggestions 08:32 that in the hands of ill conceived people can go wrong 08:39 just like in Christianity as I said before 08:43 the people that read the Bible unthinkingly 08:45 and apply it out of context 08:47 or even at variants with laws of common decency today 08:52 they can think crazy stuff and do crazy stuff. 08:55 You know, Islam has no corner on religious fanaticism. 08:59 But I mean, the one thing about the Quran 09:00 is its very clear that it calls people to fight 09:04 and makes a great deal out of being cowards 09:07 and not going into the fight. 09:09 And so I imagine I wonder if after truly 09:12 a bill there were other Muslims who were singing 09:14 I wish I had been courageous enough 09:16 to do this myself. 09:17 There will be and that's a very sad thing. 09:20 And the-- I wrote a whole editorial on this 09:23 and I feel this strongly this is the turning point, 09:28 hopefully not for the worst but it's a moment of truth 09:32 how is the west the liberal, open, freedom loving west 09:36 going to get past this because this is an opening salvo 09:40 on what amounts to a civil war of sorts within that society. 09:44 Violence, not just conflict 09:46 you know, of rioting and things like this. 09:48 This is gone for the jungle. 09:51 Well, it does seem like everybody-- 09:52 every 500 years in history there is this great conflict 09:55 between Mohammedanism and Christianity. 10:00 It's about time for another one-- 10:01 And you Know, I've got to be hopefully honest, 10:05 Christianity is not blameless in this 10:07 or at least in the sense of the forces 10:09 that have promoted Christianity. 10:12 Other political religious forces 10:15 and even within Islam world it's a huge mixture. 10:18 This is wonderfully run state of Jordan, 10:20 its not projecting radical Islam. 10:24 But those people within Jordan that read the Quran 10:26 they are reading the same stuff. 10:28 So to deny that its not there 10:29 I think is the wrong way to approach this. 10:31 I really do like 10:33 what El-Sisi said to his own people 10:35 calling them to account 10:37 and we would hope that if-- 10:45 the abortion clinic bombings got out of control 10:48 we had a spat of them. 10:50 Yes. Yes. 10:51 The responsible religious leaders, 10:52 Christian leaders in the United States 10:55 would do everything in their power 10:57 to say that this is not bringing glory to Jesus Christ, 11:01 this is a radical violent interpretation of the holy word 11:05 even though in principle, yes, 11:08 such an act we held as Christians. 11:10 You know, dispensing with human lives 11:12 so that hideously 11:13 and I will risk against the tense of our faith 11:15 but we don't. 11:17 We got no license to take violence and murder 11:20 and mayhem in our own hands. 11:21 The need is to pass I think to call for an account 11:26 and for within Islam for them to acknowledge it. 11:29 But unless that's done and probably it won't be 11:32 because I think the battle lines are drawn. 11:34 We are in for a rocky road and the worst victory at this-- 11:39 worst defeat at this point is to give away 11:42 the liberal principle of openness 11:45 that allows people to insult even religion. 11:50 Well, what you are asking us to do them 11:52 by practicing this principle of religious liberty 11:55 which I seen as to take a risk because as we accept people 12:00 with different religious points of view 12:03 and sometimes violent ones 12:05 it may not turn out well for us in the long term. 12:08 I mean, we are, we are clasping the snake to our bosom 12:12 as it were in some way that it could-- 12:16 you are saying that this principle 12:17 is worth risk to ourselves. 12:19 Well, the risk of twisting the analogy, 12:22 remember in the Bible in the desert 12:26 when the snakes were biting on right, left and center 12:29 a symbol of the snake was put up of God 12:33 and His wonderful works. 12:34 so, In the middle of snakes there is still redemption. 12:37 And so I think in the modern world 12:39 with all of the problems with religious reformation 12:41 and false hieratical views. 12:44 You know, not all religion is good. 12:46 We got to cling to this openness 12:48 because that's the only way through. 12:51 The only way through is to just be get freedom, 12:54 religious freedom to everyone and-- 12:56 This is to get license. 12:57 Give the license. 13:00 You would hope that in a responsible society 13:04 there would be some charity and individual responsibility. 13:08 Well, sometimes 13:09 some people may see that as a lot to ask for 13:11 or that they may want to draw the battle lines 13:14 but I respect 13:15 that you are asking for that kind of sacrifice 13:18 and on standing on principle in this way. 13:23 As an editor when I heard about 13:25 what happened at the editorial offices 13:27 of the magazine Charlie Hebdo in Paris 13:31 it struck home to me 13:33 that there is often an inherent risk for an editor. 13:37 Speaking the truth as you see it 13:40 is often not well received. 13:43 With Charlie Hebdo was a provocation 13:45 but still not deserving in any way of the violence 13:49 that descended upon them. 13:52 We perhaps going to have to live 13:54 with more of this type of thing 13:56 when the message is rejected violently 13:59 because it offends some sort of sensibility. 14:03 I remember reading in the Old Testament 14:05 on one occasion when the words of a prophet 14:08 were delivered to one of the kings 14:09 and the words were read aloud 14:12 and as he heard one sentence 14:14 he sliced it away with a penknife and burnt it. 14:16 And then the next sentence and he rejected that 14:19 until the whole manuscript was consumed. 14:22 Its one thing for Charlie Hebdo to be rejected 14:25 another thing when the Word of God calls 14:28 to kindness and love is rejected. 14:32 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-09-03