Welcome back to
the "Liberty Insider."
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Before the break
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we were getting into heavy stuff
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as a result of heavy
stuff in Paris, right?
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I don't think
the world generally
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is gonna be quite
the same after this
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and certainly in
regard to religious expression
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and dialogue between religions.
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It's poisoned the
atmosphere, hasn't it?
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We had a lot of smaller events
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happening between
Muslim populations
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and the general
population of Europe.
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But this is a big one.
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I mean, this is not
quite a 9/11 in the sense,
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I mean a 9/11 in the sense
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that we had here in 2001
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but it is for
them a very big event.
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Well, I think it hits
them on several levels.
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The level we had been
talking about is free speech,
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free religious speech
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but on the other level
which went along with it
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the commando style violence
that came in response to that.
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How does any open
society defend against that?
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So it is like the
twin towers coming down.
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It's the idea
that you are not safe
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in your own house anymore.
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Yeah, that's the worst thing
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you can do to
upset a population.
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Which is through terrorism.
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For they are going for I guess.
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Yes.
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And you know, we need to
say for those of our viewers
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that maybe not totally
familiar with the story.
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Well, this is connected to ISIL
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and the whole
Middle Eastern affair
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at the same time
there is a parallel story
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of these young
fellows that they were
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disadvantaged, disenfranchised
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young men growing up in Paris
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that were really
criminals early on
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until radical Islam
sort of gave them an output
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for this dysfunction.
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So this isn't just the story of
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wrong headed Islam
versus insulting Christianity.
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Yes, true and
that you might have
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find parallels even in America
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where the young man
who tried to find meaning
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and direction in the--
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Well, I can tell you this,
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the parallel of
America is Ku Klux Klan.
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The Ku Klux Klan has its,
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is its major tenant
white Protestant America
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which is sort of
sinister in a certain way
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but the way it worked out
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it was the
gathering point for people
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that like to go out lynching
and causing modern day mayhem
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it was the
gathering point for people.
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It had just a free
floating bigotry and so on.
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So you know, how do you separate
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the whole Ku Klux Klan
phenomenon from working class
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bigoted narrow neighborhoods,
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you know, that
really won't progressive
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for any general sense
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but here this is the conduce
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that's like they
come into their own
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or the other one in America.
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There is a huge
problem in the United States
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as in France for that matter
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but we know it in the US
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the huge problem
within the prisons
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where they
recruited for radical Islam.
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I know I've read
long articles on this
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and I thought
long and hard about it
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that you have violent
socially dislocated individuals
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who then are contacted
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and they are given sort
of a ticket to indulge that.
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Now it's called religion. Right.
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Yeah, they have found
meaning, they found redemption
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and over their past sins
and what happened in the past.
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But they were--
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these guys had fully
evidence, these were violent,
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criminally
inspired or inclined fellows
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even before radical
Islam got a hold of them.
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So its not quite to fair
to blame all of it on Islam
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but there were things in Islam
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both in the Quran
and Middle Eastern
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goings on that sort
of resonated with them
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and they were been on a mission.
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Now what would you say to people
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who say that Islam the belief
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actually encourages
this kind of violence more so
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than a conversion with
of a Christian or a Jew
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if they had conversions.
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Well, I can say
it on this program
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but I have to
preface it by this program
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is about religious liberty.
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So there is a difference
and I hope our viewers see this
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on the verse restated
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the principle of
religious liberty
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has to mean that
its creatures of a God
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created for free thought
and for self-determination
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obviously that
can't be fulfilled
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without reaching toward God.
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We have to allow everybody
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to take their
own spiritual journey
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and respect it, and allow it
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unless it's turn
out on other creatures
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and causes them
harm or violence, right.
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That's a given
and I've often said
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I had to be prepared
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to defend your
right to believe something
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I find out noxious to
the death of possible,
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my death, right but
people don't like that idea.
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No.
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If it became a popular
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and for standing up
for religious liberty
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I need to persist in that
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even though your belief
system might turn my stomach.
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When we're just describing
in an objective fashion
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as I could as a
western Christian
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obviously I bring biases,
the run away assumptions.
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But looked at it as logically
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as I can and like
you have read the Quran.
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I think the service
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is being made to
the public sensibility
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by denials that
Jihad is in the Quran.
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It's not just in the Quran
it rides the wave of the Quran.
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There are hadiths which
are like the gospel accounts
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that are in the Bible
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but they are part of
the holy writings of Islam
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but they are not the Quran.
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They are whole at least on Jihad
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and you can allow
that in different time
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and I've talked to
Muslim theologians.
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Clearly at times
Islam was under threat
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that felt threatened,
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other times there were
leaders who were aggressive
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and the felt the need
to enlarge it by the sword
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which is the symbol of
Saudi Arabia and other country.
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Fine, that's a
matter of their history
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but to say it doesn't
exist has to been nonsensical.
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It is a
legitimate part of Quranic
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and traditional
instructions of Islam
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and we should acknowledge that.
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What I think is
General El-Sisi of Egypt
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said to his own
spiritual leaders recently
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its time for the
leaders of that religion
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to realize that
in the modern world
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that can't be indulged
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and that it needs to be
explained to the faithful
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who follow the lead
of Imams and other people
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but this is not acceptable now.
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Just because its, the
religion calls you too
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it it's not acceptable.
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You know, you could
have religions just as easy,
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its been a few
of them in the past
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that says like in India
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they used to have
derive from religions sati
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where the wife had to be
burned alive with the husband.
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Well, England
restricted that at great length
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because yes, their
belief called into that
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but the society
which respected human life
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and interaction is
people is not gonna allow it.
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And I think in some regards
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Islam needs to
where face the music
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and make that
decision for themselves.
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If it's forced
on them its wrong.
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Well, it seems like
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that's a lot to
wish for that they can--
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It's a lot for wish for
and may be never happen.
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But to deny that
fact is not good.
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The word Islam means submission
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and I have yet to hear
someone that acknowledges
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that so as peace.
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It doesn't mean that.
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Hopefully Islamic faith
as well as Christian faith
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or Buddhism,
Hinduism to a true hears
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in will mean peace
and fulfillment so on.
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Of course, that's the
aim of whole spirituality.
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But we need to keep to the facts
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and looks at things logically.
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And I've written
in Liberty Magazine
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and on one level I'm
very sympathetic to Islam.
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I had many talks with Muslims
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but I think the
writings have come down
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to them contain--
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they just contain suggestions
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that in the hands of ill
conceived people can go wrong
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just like in
Christianity as I said before
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the people that read
the Bible unthinkingly
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and apply it out of context
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or even at variants with
laws of common decency today
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they can think crazy
stuff and do crazy stuff.
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You know, Islam has no
corner on religious fanaticism.
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But I mean, the one
thing about the Quran
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is its very clear that
it calls people to fight
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and makes a great
deal out of being cowards
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and not going into the fight.
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And so I imagine I
wonder if after truly
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a bill there were other
Muslims who were singing
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I wish I had
been courageous enough
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to do this myself.
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There will be and
that's a very sad thing.
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And the-- I wrote a
whole editorial on this
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and I feel this strongly
this is the turning point,
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hopefully not for the
worst but it's a moment of truth
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how is the west the liberal,
open, freedom loving west
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going to get past this
because this is an opening salvo
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on what amounts to a civil war
of sorts within that society.
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Violence, not just conflict
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you know, of rioting
and things like this.
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This is gone for the jungle.
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Well, it does
seem like everybody--
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every 500 years in history
there is this great conflict
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between
Mohammedanism and Christianity.
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It's about time
for another one--
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And you Know, I've got
to be hopefully honest,
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Christianity is
not blameless in this
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or at least in the
sense of the forces
00:10:07.07\00:10:09.57
that have promoted Christianity.
00:10:09.60\00:10:12.04
Other political religious forces
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and even within Islam
world it's a huge mixture.
00:10:15.94\00:10:18.11
This is wonderfully
run state of Jordan,
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its not
projecting radical Islam.
00:10:20.75\00:10:24.09
But those people within
Jordan that read the Quran
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they are reading the same stuff.
00:10:26.39\00:10:28.32
So to deny that its not there
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I think is the wrong
way to approach this.
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I really do like
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what El-Sisi
said to his own people
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calling them to account
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and we would hope that if--
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the abortion clinic
bombings got out of control
00:10:45.87\00:10:48.71
we had a spat of them.
00:10:48.74\00:10:50.08
Yes. Yes.
00:10:50.11\00:10:51.45
The responsible
religious leaders,
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Christian leaders
in the United States
00:10:52.98\00:10:55.38
would do
everything in their power
00:10:55.42\00:10:57.22
to say that this is not
bringing glory to Jesus Christ,
00:10:57.25\00:11:01.26
this is a radical violent
interpretation of the holy word
00:11:01.29\00:11:05.66
even though in principle, yes,
00:11:05.69\00:11:08.30
such an act we
held as Christians.
00:11:08.33\00:11:10.47
You know,
dispensing with human lives
00:11:10.50\00:11:12.47
so that hideously
00:11:12.50\00:11:13.84
and I will risk
against the tense of our faith
00:11:13.87\00:11:15.60
but we don't.
00:11:15.64\00:11:16.97
We got no license to
take violence and murder
00:11:17.01\00:11:20.11
and mayhem in our own hands.
00:11:20.14\00:11:21.71
The need is to pass I
think to call for an account
00:11:21.74\00:11:26.48
and for within Islam
for them to acknowledge it.
00:11:26.51\00:11:29.28
But unless that's done
and probably it won't be
00:11:29.32\00:11:32.49
because I think the
battle lines are drawn.
00:11:32.52\00:11:34.32
We are in for a rocky road
and the worst victory at this--
00:11:34.36\00:11:39.19
worst defeat at this
point is to give away
00:11:39.23\00:11:42.03
the liberal
principle of openness
00:11:42.06\00:11:45.23
that allows people
to insult even religion.
00:11:45.27\00:11:50.54
Well, what you are
asking us to do them
00:11:50.57\00:11:52.67
by practicing this
principle of religious liberty
00:11:52.71\00:11:55.58
which I seen as to take a
risk because as we accept people
00:11:55.61\00:12:00.48
with different
religious points of view
00:12:00.52\00:12:03.45
and sometimes violent ones
00:12:03.49\00:12:05.85
it may not turn out
well for us in the long term.
00:12:05.89\00:12:08.02
I mean, we are, we are
clasping the snake to our bosom
00:12:08.06\00:12:12.09
as it were in some
way that it could--
00:12:12.13\00:12:16.26
you are saying
that this principle
00:12:16.30\00:12:17.83
is worth risk to ourselves.
00:12:17.87\00:12:19.73
Well, the risk of
twisting the analogy,
00:12:19.77\00:12:22.90
remember in the
Bible in the desert
00:12:22.94\00:12:26.84
when the snakes were
biting on right, left and center
00:12:26.88\00:12:29.81
a symbol of the
snake was put up of God
00:12:29.84\00:12:33.05
and His wonderful works.
00:12:33.08\00:12:34.42
so, In the middle of snakes
there is still redemption.
00:12:34.45\00:12:37.42
And so I think
in the modern world
00:12:37.45\00:12:39.22
with all of the problems
with religious reformation
00:12:39.25\00:12:41.82
and false hieratical views.
00:12:41.86\00:12:44.13
You know, not
all religion is good.
00:12:44.16\00:12:46.03
We got to cling to this openness
00:12:46.06\00:12:48.13
because that's
the only way through.
00:12:48.16\00:12:50.97
The only way through
is to just be get freedom,
00:12:51.00\00:12:54.50
religious
freedom to everyone and--
00:12:54.54\00:12:56.17
This is to get license.
00:12:56.20\00:12:57.94
Give the license.
00:12:57.97\00:13:00.68
You would hope that
in a responsible society
00:13:00.71\00:13:04.05
there would be some charity
and individual responsibility.
00:13:04.08\00:13:07.98
Well, sometimes
00:13:08.02\00:13:09.35
some people may see
that as a lot to ask for
00:13:09.38\00:13:11.09
or that they may want
to draw the battle lines
00:13:11.12\00:13:14.52
but I respect
00:13:14.56\00:13:15.89
that you are asking
for that kind of sacrifice
00:13:15.92\00:13:18.79
and on standing on
principle in this way.
00:13:18.83\00:13:23.80
As an editor when I heard about
00:13:23.83\00:13:25.73
what happened at
the editorial offices
00:13:25.77\00:13:27.64
of the magazine
Charlie Hebdo in Paris
00:13:27.67\00:13:31.67
it struck home to me
00:13:31.71\00:13:33.61
that there is often an
inherent risk for an editor.
00:13:33.64\00:13:37.81
Speaking the truth as you see it
00:13:37.85\00:13:40.92
is often not well received.
00:13:40.95\00:13:43.42
With Charlie
Hebdo was a provocation
00:13:43.45\00:13:45.85
but still not deserving
in any way of the violence
00:13:45.89\00:13:49.02
that descended upon them.
00:13:49.06\00:13:52.23
We perhaps going to have to live
00:13:52.26\00:13:54.13
with more of this type of thing
00:13:54.16\00:13:56.73
when the message
is rejected violently
00:13:56.77\00:13:59.57
because it offends
some sort of sensibility.
00:13:59.60\00:14:03.10
I remember reading
in the Old Testament
00:14:03.14\00:14:05.14
on one occasion when
the words of a prophet
00:14:05.17\00:14:08.01
were delivered
to one of the kings
00:14:08.04\00:14:09.64
and the words were read aloud
00:14:09.68\00:14:12.01
and as he heard one sentence
00:14:12.05\00:14:14.55
he sliced it away with
a penknife and burnt it.
00:14:14.58\00:14:16.82
And then the next
sentence and he rejected that
00:14:16.85\00:14:19.25
until the whole
manuscript was consumed.
00:14:19.29\00:14:22.09
Its one thing for
Charlie Hebdo to be rejected
00:14:22.12\00:14:25.93
another thing when
the Word of God calls
00:14:25.96\00:14:28.73
to kindness and
love is rejected.
00:14:28.76\00:14:32.90
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:14:32.93\00:14:35.94