Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Kim Peckham
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000277A
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00:17 Welcome to the "Liberty Insider."
00:18 This is a program that brings you religious liberty 00:21 and easy to approach format of discussion, 00:23 analysis and up-to-date information. 00:26 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine 00:30 and my guest on the program is Kim Peckham, 00:33 man of all seasons, editor, writer, publicist, tourist. 00:39 No, these are reductions, this is great. 00:41 Our friend. I hope so. 00:43 On occasion. 00:45 And here to discuss some serious issues 00:48 and let's really hit it 00:49 with the profaneage rationality kicks in. 00:53 The story that's come out of France 00:55 recently of the extremist, 00:58 let's use the word Islamic attack 01:01 on the editorial offices of Charlie Hebdo. 01:04 What does that tell you? 01:06 In fact, tell our listeners 01:08 they might not know Charlie Hebdo. 01:09 It sounds, to me it sounds like a character 01:12 from a Japanese anime cartoon. 01:14 It does. 01:15 Well, it's a-- it was obviously 01:17 a kind of a mad magazine it seems for the French adults 01:23 with cartoons and mockery of different things in society. 01:27 Yeah, something that escaped, 01:29 I mean it's been there but it's not emphasized. 01:31 They got into trouble and lost their lives undeservedly 01:34 for mocking and demeaning Islam and the Prophet. 01:39 But they had also done the same treatment 01:41 quite regularly against Christian themes 01:43 and Christ and all things sacred to Bible 01:47 believing Christians. 01:48 They were equal opportunity blasphemous but you know, 01:53 this side of the judgment that doesn't bring death 01:57 to anyone nor should it. 01:59 Yeah, the interesting about it is 02:01 you have a mostly secular country facing up with people 02:06 who take their religion so seriously 02:09 that they are willing to kill people over it. 02:11 Yeah, absolutely. 02:12 And I think that raises 02:13 some serious issues for religious liberty 02:15 and people are probably thinking in France right now, 02:18 you know, we just can't have this kind of religion around 02:21 if its gonna causing this sort of destruction. 02:25 Yes, what do you think France will do 02:27 or should do to head this off? 02:30 Before the program began I was saying 02:31 that had he defend against this sort of thing very hard. 02:37 Is it an adequate defense to cease and desist? 02:40 Never print such material. 02:42 Well, some people would bridal up there 02:44 like why do we have to change or freedom of speech 02:48 but there is another sign in fact, 02:51 one of the co-founds of Charlie Hebdo came out 02:55 almost immediately after the murder saying, 02:58 you know, you guys pushed in this direction. 03:01 You know, you almost 03:03 brought this on yourself he was saying. 03:05 Which mean if he popped out was insensitive 03:06 but he was saying, you know, 03:09 if you keep banging away at this peoples dignity 03:15 something is gonna happen and obviously dead even though 03:19 they had policemen watching. 03:22 I mean, it's a wired job to have 03:24 where you have to have policemen protecting in 03:26 for people all the time. 03:28 I don't know what jokers with that kind of-- 03:31 The president is being said, if no other case than the, 03:34 than the Danish cartoon controversy there was-- 03:39 as I remember there was a politician stabbed 03:41 in the street on that and riots all over the world. 03:44 So yes, it's well known the reaction you get 03:48 from that sort of thing and I must say 03:51 and its worth saying that 03:53 while these religious sensibilities 03:55 this is a convenient catalyst that different leaders 03:58 even in Pakistan and places like that 04:00 use to rave the crowd up. 04:02 They wanted to rave them anyway 04:03 so we just give them the pretext 04:07 but of course Islam is, 04:10 you know, it comes straight from the believes, 04:12 I don't know about the Quran directly. 04:14 In fact, what I think what I read but, 04:16 you know, there is an inhabitation 04:17 against visual representations of the holy things 04:21 particularly the Prophet. 04:23 Yeah. Yeah. Very definitely. 04:25 To me there is a certain theological irony 04:27 that I think Islam has shown itself more concerned 04:30 about representations of the Prophet than the God. 04:35 Yeah, they are very clear that they don't want 04:37 representations of course, of anything. 04:40 I came across a magazine for a young Muslim woman once 04:46 and was interesting to see there was no pictures of people 04:49 in a teen girls magazine. 04:50 You know, they would make up tips 04:53 and this sort of stuff but no pictures of people. 04:55 And so obviously it goes a little further if you don't. 04:58 And you see it when you go into mosques 05:02 lot of mosaic work 05:04 and intricate designs and no pictures. 05:08 No, its not just pictures of people, 05:10 usually not literal images of anything. 05:14 So is this a matter of free speech 05:17 on a part of Charlie Hebdo 05:18 or was it just outright disrespect that-- 05:21 Oh, I think it was-- I mean, 05:22 I don't think anybody could say other than that 05:26 it was disrespect 05:27 but disrespect weren't violent reaction 05:32 and indeed murder and its disrespect to be prohibited 05:37 by law under pain-- you know, severe pain of law. 05:40 We do actually have western laws 05:42 that penalized disrespect. 05:44 You can be sued for deformation of one type or another. 05:48 There are avenues-- disrespect is not open ended 05:53 and I don't know it hasn't much been done 05:56 but its not impossible that a religious group 05:59 in this case Islam could probably sue 06:02 such a magazine for defaming them publicly. 06:06 I can't imagine how that would work but-- 06:09 Well, they would have to show I would think some damage, 06:16 helpable damage to their organization 06:18 or their functioning in society 06:20 they would have to show misrepresentation 06:22 that this isn't so. 06:24 Well, you know, not this particular one 06:25 but there are scurrilous things said about our religion. 06:28 You could conceivable run that. 06:31 But the bottom line when you talk 06:32 about free speech and you know, 06:35 freedom under more open system. 06:39 We have to allow 06:41 because this didn't happened to be religion 06:43 but one religion will often say 06:46 and proclaim things that another religion 06:47 finds offensive and insulting. 06:53 You can't stop it just because they find that 06:56 and the threshold is very like crazy right. 06:58 All the time. 07:00 So what do you think about the case 07:03 of the religious liberty implications on this? 07:07 Are we-- are you more interested 07:09 in protecting the right of those people to poke fun 07:15 at religions or more interested in protecting 07:21 the dignity of people in minority religions? 07:26 Dignity is an interesting question. 07:31 I think coming to church dressed in a nice suit 07:36 and with my Bible under my hand is quite dignified. 07:41 Its possible that in the working class neighborhood 07:43 where they don't dress up much beyond blue jeans 07:46 they might see that as little antiquated 07:52 or at a sync with society. 07:54 Old fashioned, yeah. 07:56 I certainly think when I see 07:59 some of the medieval costumes that remind me more 08:05 of dress up nice then daily dress 08:10 to some of the churches 08:12 that its pretension of the least 08:14 and nonsense and worse. 08:15 So you know, you got to be bit careful on this. 08:19 I'm happy and I have said it before to allow people 08:23 to think the other religion is not sensical 08:26 even laughable or whatever that's fine, 08:29 you have, should have a right to do that. 08:30 But they have a right to exist and to believe such a thing. 08:34 And unless them doing that restricts me 08:39 and vise versa the law shouldn't get involved. 08:43 I think it comes down to which is the most important part 08:45 in religious liberty is it us respecting people who have-- 08:49 Well, now religious liberty is not about respect. 08:51 So is it about the freedom to do whatever you want to do? 08:54 Well, I mean, it's not about respect 08:56 in the sense of respecting all what you do inside. 08:58 So it's respecting your right to hold an opinion 09:01 that you find-- 09:02 not just an opinion or faith view 09:05 and a conscience position that you find deeply troubling 09:09 and even insulting. 09:11 It's only at that level 09:13 that it's a meaningful right and allowance. 09:18 Most cultures and most political systems 09:22 will allow quite aberrant-- 09:25 at root aberrant thinking and behavior 09:27 as long as its below threshold where its not troubling anyone. 09:31 Its when a troublesome, 09:32 when that's the truth that's kicks in. 09:36 So in this case we have cartoons going up the offend 09:41 what 20 percent of the population of Paris 09:43 or more maybe. 09:46 Is it a threshold what if it offended all of the Paris? 09:49 Maybe yeah. 09:51 Maybe it was probably offensive to majority 09:53 actually some of the raw things that were in the magazine 09:57 so that that the important thing 09:59 then is that we accept that. 10:03 Well, you know, 10:05 I think there are other mechanisms in society to-- 10:09 I'm hesitating now. 10:10 I'm gonna use it about friends 10:12 where all civilization excludes from but, 10:14 you know, you have to civilize society 10:17 and there should be any number of spontaneously 10:20 generated processes that would teach 10:25 or would incline such editors 10:29 and people in different forms of life 10:31 to not push the envelop just to be scare less or insulting 10:37 but the way to do it is not to outlaw, 10:39 to outlawed is to turn the clock back 10:42 and on liberal openness and recognizing the rights 10:50 and dignity of human beings and just because somebody, 10:56 you know, like I need to say in this hour 10:58 there are people who think they are Napoleon 11:01 or Hitler or someone. 11:04 You know, it indulges their affectation, right. 11:07 So what you are saying is they can't hold a person hostage 11:11 or country hostage under threat of I'm gonna be offended. 11:14 So you can't do. 11:16 That's a good point and that's happening more and more. 11:19 Let's take a quick break, we will be back shortly 11:21 to continue this deep discussion 11:24 which makes me pull us and pull us 11:26 because there is a lot writing on this. 11:28 But stay with us we will be back. |
Revised 2015-09-03