Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is a program that
brings you religious liberty
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and easy to approach
format of discussion,
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analysis and
up-to-date information.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the
program is Kim Peckham,
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man of all seasons, editor,
writer, publicist, tourist.
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No, these are
reductions, this is great.
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Our friend. I hope so.
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On occasion.
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And here to
discuss some serious issues
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and let's really hit it
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with the profaneage
rationality kicks in.
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The story that's
come out of France
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recently of the extremist,
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let's use the
word Islamic attack
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on the editorial
offices of Charlie Hebdo.
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What does that tell you?
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In fact, tell our listeners
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they might not
know Charlie Hebdo.
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It sounds, to me it
sounds like a character
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from a Japanese anime cartoon.
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It does.
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Well, it's a-- it was obviously
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a kind of a mad magazine
it seems for the French adults
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with cartoons and mockery
of different things in society.
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Yeah, something that escaped,
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I mean it's been there
but it's not emphasized.
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They got into trouble and
lost their lives undeservedly
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for mocking and
demeaning Islam and the Prophet.
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But they had also
done the same treatment
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quite regularly
against Christian themes
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and Christ and all
things sacred to Bible
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believing Christians.
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They were equal opportunity
blasphemous but you know,
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this side of the judgment
that doesn't bring death
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to anyone nor should it.
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Yeah, the
interesting about it is
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you have a mostly secular
country facing up with people
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who take their
religion so seriously
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that they are willing
to kill people over it.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And I think that raises
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some serious issues
for religious liberty
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and people are probably
thinking in France right now,
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you know, we just can't have
this kind of religion around
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if its gonna causing
this sort of destruction.
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Yes, what do you
think France will do
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or should do to head this off?
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Before the
program began I was saying
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that had he defend against
this sort of thing very hard.
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Is it an adequate
defense to cease and desist?
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Never print such material.
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Well, some people
would bridal up there
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like why do we have to
change or freedom of speech
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but there is
another sign in fact,
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one of the co-founds
of Charlie Hebdo came out
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almost immediately
after the murder saying,
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you know, you guys
pushed in this direction.
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You know, you almost
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brought this on
yourself he was saying.
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Which mean if he
popped out was insensitive
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but he was saying, you know,
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if you keep banging
away at this peoples dignity
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something is gonna happen
and obviously dead even though
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they had policemen watching.
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I mean, it's a wired job to have
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where you have to have
policemen protecting in
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for people all the time.
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I don't know what
jokers with that kind of--
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The president is being
said, if no other case than the,
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than the Danish
cartoon controversy there was--
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as I remember there
was a politician stabbed
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in the street on that
and riots all over the world.
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So yes, it's well
known the reaction you get
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from that sort of
thing and I must say
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and its worth saying that
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while these
religious sensibilities
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this is a convenient
catalyst that different leaders
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even in Pakistan
and places like that
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use to rave the crowd up.
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They wanted to rave them anyway
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so we just give them the pretext
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but of course Islam is,
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you know, it comes
straight from the believes,
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I don't know about
the Quran directly.
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In fact, what I
think what I read but,
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you know, there
is an inhabitation
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against visual representations
of the holy things
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particularly the Prophet.
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Yeah. Yeah. Very definitely.
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To me there is a
certain theological irony
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that I think Islam has
shown itself more concerned
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about representations of
the Prophet than the God.
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Yeah, they are very
clear that they don't want
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representations of
course, of anything.
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I came across a magazine
for a young Muslim woman once
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and was interesting to see
there was no pictures of people
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in a teen girls magazine.
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You know, they
would make up tips
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and this sort of stuff
but no pictures of people.
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And so obviously it goes a
little further if you don't.
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And you see it
when you go into mosques
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lot of mosaic work
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and intricate
designs and no pictures.
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No, its not just
pictures of people,
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usually not
literal images of anything.
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So is this a
matter of free speech
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on a part of Charlie Hebdo
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or was it just
outright disrespect that--
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Oh, I think it was-- I mean,
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I don't think anybody
could say other than that
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it was disrespect
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but disrespect
weren't violent reaction
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and indeed murder and its
disrespect to be prohibited
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by law under pain-- you
know, severe pain of law.
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We do actually have western laws
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that penalized disrespect.
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You can be sued for deformation
of one type or another.
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There are avenues--
disrespect is not open ended
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and I don't know it
hasn't much been done
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but its not impossible
that a religious group
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in this case
Islam could probably sue
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such a magazine for
defaming them publicly.
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I can't imagine how
that would work but--
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Well, they would have to
show I would think some damage,
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helpable damage
to their organization
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or their functioning in society
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they would have to
show misrepresentation
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that this isn't so.
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Well, you know,
not this particular one
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but there are scurrilous
things said about our religion.
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You could conceivable run that.
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But the bottom
line when you talk
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about free speech and you know,
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freedom under more open system.
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We have to allow
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because this didn't
happened to be religion
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but one religion will often say
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and proclaim things
that another religion
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finds offensive and insulting.
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You can't stop it
just because they find that
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and the threshold is
very like crazy right.
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All the time.
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So what do you
think about the case
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of the religious
liberty implications on this?
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Are we-- are you more interested
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in protecting the right
of those people to poke fun
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at religions or more
interested in protecting
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the dignity of people
in minority religions?
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Dignity is an
interesting question.
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I think coming to
church dressed in a nice suit
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and with my Bible under
my hand is quite dignified.
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Its possible that in the
working class neighborhood
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where they don't dress
up much beyond blue jeans
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they might see that
as little antiquated
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or at a sync with society.
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Old fashioned, yeah.
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I certainly think when I see
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some of the medieval
costumes that remind me more
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of dress up
nice then daily dress
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to some of the churches
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that its pretension of the least
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and nonsense and worse.
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So you know, you got
to be bit careful on this.
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I'm happy and I have
said it before to allow people
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to think the other
religion is not sensical
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even laughable or
whatever that's fine,
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you have, should
have a right to do that.
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But they have a right to exist
and to believe such a thing.
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And unless them
doing that restricts me
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and vise versa the law
shouldn't get involved.
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I think it comes down to
which is the most important part
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in religious liberty is it
us respecting people who have--
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Well, now religious
liberty is not about respect.
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So is it about the freedom
to do whatever you want to do?
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Well, I mean,
it's not about respect
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in the sense of respecting
all what you do inside.
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So it's respecting your
right to hold an opinion
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that you find--
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not just an
opinion or faith view
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and a conscience position
that you find deeply troubling
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and even insulting.
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It's only at that level
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that it's a
meaningful right and allowance.
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Most cultures and
most political systems
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will allow quite aberrant--
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at root aberrant
thinking and behavior
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as long as its below threshold
where its not troubling anyone.
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Its when a troublesome,
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when that's the
truth that's kicks in.
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So in this case we have
cartoons going up the offend
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what 20 percent of
the population of Paris
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or more maybe.
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Is it a threshold what if
it offended all of the Paris?
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Maybe yeah.
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Maybe it was
probably offensive to majority
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actually some of the raw
things that were in the magazine
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so that that the important thing
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then is that we accept that.
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Well, you know,
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I think there are other
mechanisms in society to--
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I'm hesitating now.
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I'm gonna use it about friends
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where all
civilization excludes from but,
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you know, you have
to civilize society
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and there should be
any number of spontaneously
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generated
processes that would teach
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or would incline such editors
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and people in
different forms of life
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to not push the envelop just
to be scare less or insulting
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but the way to do
it is not to outlaw,
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to outlawed is to
turn the clock back
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and on liberal openness
and recognizing the rights
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and dignity of human beings
and just because somebody,
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you know, like I
need to say in this hour
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there are people who
think they are Napoleon
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or Hitler or someone.
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You know, it indulges
their affectation, right.
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So what you are saying is
they can't hold a person hostage
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or country hostage under
threat of I'm gonna be offended.
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So you can't do.
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That's a good point and
that's happening more and more.
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Let's take a quick
break, we will be back shortly
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to continue this deep discussion
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which makes me
pull us and pull us
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because there is a
lot writing on this.
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But stay with
us we will be back.
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