Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Kim Peckham
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000276B
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00:05 Welcome to The Liberty Insider.
00:07 This is the program that brings you discussion, 00:09 news, and updates and some insights 00:11 I hope on religious liberty in the United States 00:14 and around the world. 00:15 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:19 And my guest, Kim Peckham. 00:23 Won't even say what you're famous for Kim 00:24 but what I want to discuss with you 00:28 is you took your family, not too many weeks ago, 00:32 your wife and how old is your son? 00:34 Twelve? He was 12 at the time. 00:35 Yeah, twelve year old son, 00:38 to Europe for about a month visiting-- 00:42 You did complain your son wanted to just see 00:44 you know, the tourist spots? 00:47 But I am sure you did a lot more. 00:49 When you're driving, out of necessity, 00:51 you get the real feel for the place 00:53 and you can't help 00:54 but driving by some significant places, 00:57 even on the way to the, you know, the museum 01:00 or whatever it is the tourist might want to see. 01:03 Again what sticks in your mind from going through Europe? 01:07 And you already said one thing 01:09 and it is an impression that people get. 01:11 These great reminders of cathedrals 01:15 and other religious buildings and artifacts of great faith 01:19 and great control of faith 01:22 and yet so many people attending them 01:23 other than tourists. 01:25 Yeah, not many. 01:26 So religion seems to, what is it Matthew Arnold says, 01:28 "I see the great sea of faith receding." 01:32 And it feels like that. 01:33 And of course, I didn't live there 01:36 and so I can't say for sure what the situation has been. 01:40 It just definitely feels like if they had to rebuild 01:44 the cathedral of Milan now with today's believers, 01:48 today's pious people, how big of a place would it be? 01:52 You know, it may have been a butler building there, 01:54 you know, it may not be much. 01:56 So something is changed there. 01:59 And Europe may feel like 02:02 it's just fine as it goes into sort of a secular model. 02:08 I was reading the other day, like in France for example, 02:12 some polls put the number of non-believers, 02:17 I mean people who have no claim to religion, 02:20 atheist and people like that 02:22 is equal to Catholics in France. 02:26 Probably it's almost an exaggeration 02:28 but it's getting to be 02:29 where it's very different from the time. 02:31 You know, I have said it on this program before 02:33 and I will say it again because this is burden of mine. 02:35 I agree with what you said as you say that 02:39 but I disagree on what it means. 02:42 Because I don't really believe that 02:45 the religious identity has vanished from Europe. 02:48 And just like in the Balkan to say, 02:52 "When conflicts come up, 02:54 everybody automatically knows who they belong to." 02:58 And those people in France 02:59 and in a way the Muslim immigration 03:02 that's bringing suicidal as well 03:04 as religious stresses there. 03:07 That's objectionable because everybody 03:09 sort of well aware this is a Christian, 03:11 you know, our society is at threat, 03:13 this Christian, Catholic at large 03:15 and so I think when the chips are down, people know 03:20 and will rally to at least a religiopolitical banner. 03:26 And you know, yes, my grandfather 03:28 and my parents, they were such and such. 03:29 I am, may never have darkened the church, 03:32 may never set a rosary or gone through a catechism 03:37 or anything but they sort of have 03:40 a religiopolitical identity. 03:43 And I wonder how important that is. 03:45 Well, it's not very important as far as the individual, 03:48 if we believe that faith elevates and saves you. 03:52 No, they're out of the game. 03:54 They are seculars as you have said. 03:55 Yeah, they have the label. 03:56 You know, like when you get an Apple computer, 03:58 you know, it will come with stickers, Apple stickers 04:01 and you can take those stickers 04:02 and you can put them on anything, 04:04 even another computer but it doesn't make 04:05 these other things Apple products. 04:08 So it's like they say they are Christian, 04:11 but if they have a different set of values. 04:14 Now, that's where it really makes the difference. 04:17 The values are disappearing, the standards of religion, 04:20 even the control 04:24 and not just the Roman Catholic Church 04:25 but in Europe particular the Roman Catholic Church, 04:27 I think they're having great trouble maneuvering 04:32 their populations to do what they want. 04:34 You know, I am old enough to remember 04:35 when the divorce and remarriage issue 04:37 in Italy got away from the papacy. 04:41 They used to say. 04:44 I think which was it a Gina Lollobrigida 04:46 or anyhow, one of those famous actresses 04:48 very publically was not allowed to remarry about the papacy. 04:51 Those days are just gone, and I think they are losing 04:54 their direct influence over the population. 04:58 And so this side you have 05:00 people who don't really have these values, 05:03 or these concerns or these passion, 05:07 are probably having a real hard time 05:08 understanding the immigrants who are coming 05:10 and Muslim immigrants 05:13 who have a passion and it's like, "What? 05:15 What are you doing?" 05:17 It's like, it's almost bad etiquette 05:23 to be religious in public. 05:24 Yes, absolutely. 05:25 In your opposite, England especially, 05:27 I mean it's almost you know, it's like spanking your kid. 05:30 But in a way, the way you describe that 05:31 that is reinforcing my view. 05:34 That as that happens it sort of reawakens 05:37 their identity with a religion they once, 05:41 or at least their family once had. 05:42 They are not seeing that and thinking I am nothing. 05:45 No, they are thinking this is offensive 05:47 to my culture which was described 05:51 this way on religious identity. 05:53 He doesn't like that. 05:54 Serious going more of a tribal difference. 05:56 Yes, absolutely. That's the word I use a lot. 05:59 I believe the world, the whole world 06:01 has gone past communism, it's gone past capitalism, 06:04 certainly gone past imperialism and so on. 06:07 And nationalism at per se, it's not popular. 06:11 But tribal identity is primary 06:13 and what mostly determines tribal identity is religion. 06:17 I think the world is clustering that way. 06:20 This is being probably one of the saving graces. 06:23 In North America they said 06:25 this is a country of immigrants. 06:26 Perhaps it's making it harder for that to happen, absolutely. 06:29 Harder for tribalism to raise its ugly head. 06:32 The other day at the religious liberty seminar 06:36 someone started to try to get a meaning of people 06:39 that were wearing tattoos at the workplace 06:41 and they were throwing that up as oppose to hijabs and beards 06:47 and head dresses, you know religious address 06:50 the same about tattoos. 06:55 And so I said, "This is a move towards tribalism." 06:59 And I read plenty of sociology to identify it that way. 07:02 Or a Christian says it more as paganism. 07:06 We're going back to as a societal paganism, 07:10 but it's really a tribal identity 07:11 because tribes used to identify themselves by their markings. 07:16 So this identify me, a tattoo would identify me 07:18 as like a member of Harley Davidson Tribe or? 07:21 Some do. 07:22 Some tattoos for prison identity. 07:27 You watch and you'll see that-- 07:29 It used to be when I was a kid, 07:31 there was sort of naive that you know more than anything-- 07:33 The anchor on the forearm thing. 07:35 But again that's a tribal identity. 07:38 And as that becomes more general in society, 07:41 I think it reflects tribal thinking 07:43 and the physical markers. 07:45 Anyhow, we need to get back to Europe. 07:49 Let's get back to Europe. 07:51 But you made some very good observations there 07:53 and the physical good reason why it's not quite the same 07:56 in the United States 07:57 but some of the same forces are applied. 07:59 It does seem to. 08:00 Many people say that 08:02 America is going the way Europe is. 08:04 Europe is just a head of us, 08:05 may be 30 years or 25 years or whatever. 08:09 It's probably true. 08:11 They used to say that about Australia. 08:13 Australia was-- time is shortening now 08:17 but it used to be 10 or 20 years 08:18 behind the social movement in the United States. 08:22 Not standard living type things 08:23 but you know shifts in thinking. 08:27 And it's hard to know who is copying who, 08:31 because as far as a world culture at lowercase L, 08:37 I think the United States through Hollywood 08:39 and other things, McDonalds 08:41 and so on is sort of contributing strongly 08:43 to this universal blandness, 08:47 but perhaps we are trailing behind Europe in some other-- 08:51 Well, I think we're also admitting that 08:52 Europe has a very different religious experience 08:55 then we have in America. 08:57 America during most of its history has had 09:00 a lot of denominations in it, in some variety. 09:03 Where as in Europe it's very much a binary experience. 09:06 You know, you are either Protestant 09:08 or you are Catholic. 09:09 And that's why in a nutshell and I have said it 09:11 but it' a good chance to repeat it again. 09:13 That's in my view that is the single greatest reason 09:17 why America has had a more 09:20 or a less stressful religious environment than Europe. 09:23 The constitution is good, the history is peppered 09:27 with religious settlements and so on. 09:28 All of that is true. 09:30 But I think it's the balkanization 09:32 of religion in the United States, 09:34 where there is no controlling power, 09:36 nobody had it over the others, 09:38 so that you just get a low level fussing around the edges 09:41 but you really don't have this, 09:42 yeah this binary thing, like with the Waldenses, 09:45 where you can have literally one country 09:47 and their army against the religion 09:49 of the other country on their own. 09:50 Yeah. 09:52 It was very interesting to me when we were up hiking 09:55 in the Waldensene area in the evening 09:57 and looking for a monument, 09:58 one of several monuments that are up there. 10:00 And young man came by and tried to practice 10:05 his English on us and help us out. 10:07 And he wanted to continue talking, 10:10 "And so why are you even interested in this?" 10:13 I have just told, "Yeah, well I have just heard about 10:16 these people since I was a boy and I wanted to see this." 10:18 I said, "Oh, is that." 10:20 His eyes kind of-- eyebrows comes up, 10:22 "So you're Protestant?" 10:24 And I said, "Yeah, yeah." And I said, "Are you?" 10:27 And he said, "Well, I'm used to be. 10:30 I mean in my family, my mother's Catholic. 10:32 So now we are Catholic now." 10:34 So it was just like a switch. 10:35 You know, you are either one or the other. 10:37 There is not-- and it doesn't 10:39 really have much to do with any thing like 10:41 maybe you're a Dallas Cowboys fan or anything. 10:43 Like identity is taken on an identity 10:44 but not necessarily a belief. 10:47 Right, it's, you know, it's like, 10:49 what t-shirt you wear, you know. 10:51 Interesting. And so. 10:53 But I come with a very good experience. 10:54 And that's the sort of exchange 10:56 that I remember from Europe 10:58 rather than seeing the buildings 11:00 and that but when you sort of get down 11:02 to what makes it tick. 11:03 Right. 11:04 And yeah, it's just a privilege to meet the people, 11:07 to see that they are living in it 11:09 in different ways than we do 11:11 and that they have different values 11:13 that may be we can learn from. 11:15 You know just it's the respect 11:17 that's at the heart of all religions liberty. 11:20 Yes, and I do think Europe has a lot to teach us about 11:24 the history of religion in general 11:26 and how the Protestantism and the more open view 11:32 of religious practices has come about. 11:35 It didn't happen easily. 11:36 No. And it's still not a done deal. 11:39 We have to defend it all the time. 11:41 Yes, actually it seems like the excesses 11:43 in what happened in Europe, the persecution and so forth, 11:47 actually led to people in establishing, 11:51 say the United States to go a different path, 11:55 to not make religion part of civic power. 11:58 And that's been a good thing. 12:01 In an age when newspaper headlines 12:03 often carry news of some massacre 12:07 in the name of religion, it's worth remembering 12:10 that in France, one of the worst massacres 12:15 took place hundreds of years ago 12:18 on the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre, 12:21 when an edict of toleration, there was the problem 12:25 that have been issued sometime earlier, 12:27 gave way to para-noir 12:29 and on the orders of the prevailing 12:33 church authorities tens of thousands of Huguenots 12:37 were massacred prolifically in the streets, 12:40 all the way from the advisor to the king 12:45 and the aristocracy of the Huguenots down 12:47 to many of the villages. 12:49 It led to a mass exodus to the new world, 12:52 the religious viewpoints in Canada 12:54 and some of the US. 12:56 And should be a reminder to us, 12:59 that whenever one religion sees the other 13:02 as so great an enemy that they have to be killed, 13:06 that the religious liberty battle is lost all ready. 13:11 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-09-03