Welcome to The Liberty Insider.
00:00:05.20\00:00:06.97
This is the program
that brings you discussion,
00:00:07.00\00:00:09.10
news, and
updates and some insights
00:00:09.14\00:00:11.47
I hope on religious
liberty in the United States
00:00:11.51\00:00:14.04
and around the world.
00:00:14.08\00:00:15.48
My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
00:00:15.51\00:00:19.71
And my guest, Kim Peckham.
00:00:19.75\00:00:23.05
Won't even say what
you're famous for Kim
00:00:23.08\00:00:24.92
but what I want
to discuss with you
00:00:24.95\00:00:28.36
is you took your
family, not too many weeks ago,
00:00:28.39\00:00:32.13
your wife and
how old is your son?
00:00:32.16\00:00:34.33
Twelve? He was 12 at the time.
00:00:34.36\00:00:35.90
Yeah, twelve year old son,
00:00:35.93\00:00:38.80
to Europe for
about a month visiting--
00:00:38.83\00:00:42.24
You did complain your
son wanted to just see
00:00:42.27\00:00:44.84
you know, the tourist spots?
00:00:44.87\00:00:47.74
But I am sure
you did a lot more.
00:00:47.78\00:00:49.48
When you're
driving, out of necessity,
00:00:49.51\00:00:51.41
you get the real
feel for the place
00:00:51.45\00:00:53.48
and you can't help
00:00:53.52\00:00:54.85
but driving by
some significant places,
00:00:54.88\00:00:57.39
even on the way to
the, you know, the museum
00:00:57.42\00:01:00.32
or whatever it is the
tourist might want to see.
00:01:00.36\00:01:03.89
Again what sticks in your
mind from going through Europe?
00:01:03.93\00:01:07.70
And you already said one thing
00:01:07.73\00:01:09.56
and it is an
impression that people get.
00:01:09.60\00:01:11.73
These great
reminders of cathedrals
00:01:11.77\00:01:15.37
and other religious buildings
and artifacts of great faith
00:01:15.40\00:01:19.31
and great control of faith
00:01:19.34\00:01:22.01
and yet so many
people attending them
00:01:22.04\00:01:23.95
other than tourists.
00:01:23.98\00:01:25.31
Yeah, not many.
00:01:25.35\00:01:26.68
So religion seems to,
what is it Matthew Arnold says,
00:01:26.72\00:01:28.88
"I see the great
sea of faith receding."
00:01:28.92\00:01:32.12
And it feels like that.
00:01:32.15\00:01:33.79
And of course, I
didn't live there
00:01:33.82\00:01:36.69
and so I can't say for sure
what the situation has been.
00:01:36.73\00:01:40.13
It just definitely feels
like if they had to rebuild
00:01:40.16\00:01:44.50
the cathedral of Milan
now with today's believers,
00:01:44.53\00:01:48.44
today's pious people, how
big of a place would it be?
00:01:48.47\00:01:52.61
You know, it may have
been a butler building there,
00:01:52.64\00:01:54.44
you know, it may not be much.
00:01:54.48\00:01:56.88
So something is changed there.
00:01:56.91\00:01:59.48
And Europe may feel like
00:01:59.51\00:02:02.55
it's just fine as it goes
into sort of a secular model.
00:02:02.58\00:02:08.46
I was reading the other
day, like in France for example,
00:02:08.49\00:02:12.06
some polls put the
number of non-believers,
00:02:12.09\00:02:17.37
I mean people who
have no claim to religion,
00:02:17.40\00:02:20.84
atheist and people like that
00:02:20.87\00:02:22.90
is equal to Catholics in France.
00:02:22.94\00:02:26.54
Probably it's
almost an exaggeration
00:02:26.57\00:02:28.28
but it's getting to be
00:02:28.31\00:02:29.64
where it's very
different from the time.
00:02:29.68\00:02:31.78
You know, I have said
it on this program before
00:02:31.81\00:02:33.72
and I will say it again
because this is burden of mine.
00:02:33.75\00:02:35.22
I agree with what
you said as you say that
00:02:35.25\00:02:39.45
but I disagree on what it means.
00:02:39.49\00:02:42.79
Because I don't
really believe that
00:02:42.82\00:02:45.49
the religious identity
has vanished from Europe.
00:02:45.53\00:02:48.46
And just like in
the Balkan to say,
00:02:48.50\00:02:52.43
"When conflicts come up,
00:02:52.47\00:02:54.27
everybody automatically
knows who they belong to."
00:02:54.30\00:02:58.27
And those people in France
00:02:58.31\00:02:59.74
and in a way the
Muslim immigration
00:02:59.77\00:03:02.54
that's bringing suicidal as well
00:03:02.58\00:03:04.15
as religious stresses there.
00:03:04.18\00:03:07.38
That's
objectionable because everybody
00:03:07.42\00:03:09.65
sort of well aware
this is a Christian,
00:03:09.68\00:03:11.55
you know, our
society is at threat,
00:03:11.59\00:03:12.99
this Christian,
Catholic at large
00:03:13.02\00:03:15.96
and so I think when the
chips are down, people know
00:03:15.99\00:03:19.96
and will rally to at
least a religiopolitical banner.
00:03:20.00\00:03:26.03
And you know,
yes, my grandfather
00:03:26.07\00:03:28.20
and my parents,
they were such and such.
00:03:28.24\00:03:29.90
I am, may never
have darkened the church,
00:03:29.94\00:03:32.37
may never set a rosary
or gone through a catechism
00:03:32.41\00:03:37.51
or anything but
they sort of have
00:03:37.55\00:03:40.28
a religiopolitical identity.
00:03:40.32\00:03:43.55
And I wonder how
important that is.
00:03:43.59\00:03:45.59
Well, it's not very important
as far as the individual,
00:03:45.62\00:03:48.89
if we believe that
faith elevates and saves you.
00:03:48.92\00:03:52.76
No, they're out of the game.
00:03:52.79\00:03:54.13
They are
seculars as you have said.
00:03:54.16\00:03:55.50
Yeah, they have the label.
00:03:55.53\00:03:56.87
You know, like when
you get an Apple computer,
00:03:56.90\00:03:58.63
you know, it will come
with stickers, Apple stickers
00:03:58.67\00:04:01.14
and you can take those stickers
00:04:01.17\00:04:02.67
and you can put
them on anything,
00:04:02.70\00:04:04.04
even another
computer but it doesn't make
00:04:04.07\00:04:05.77
these other
things Apple products.
00:04:05.81\00:04:08.88
So it's like they
say they are Christian,
00:04:08.91\00:04:11.48
but if they have a
different set of values.
00:04:11.51\00:04:14.75
Now, that's where it
really makes the difference.
00:04:14.78\00:04:17.52
The values are disappearing,
the standards of religion,
00:04:17.55\00:04:20.76
even the control
00:04:20.79\00:04:24.33
and not just the
Roman Catholic Church
00:04:24.36\00:04:25.69
but in Europe particular
the Roman Catholic Church,
00:04:25.73\00:04:27.73
I think they're having
great trouble maneuvering
00:04:27.76\00:04:32.03
their populations
to do what they want.
00:04:32.07\00:04:34.30
You know, I am
old enough to remember
00:04:34.34\00:04:35.67
when the divorce
and remarriage issue
00:04:35.70\00:04:37.91
in Italy got
away from the papacy.
00:04:37.94\00:04:41.71
They used to say.
00:04:41.74\00:04:44.18
I think which was
it a Gina Lollobrigida
00:04:44.21\00:04:46.08
or anyhow, one of
those famous actresses
00:04:46.11\00:04:48.08
very publically was not allowed
to remarry about the papacy.
00:04:48.12\00:04:51.69
Those days are just gone,
and I think they are losing
00:04:51.72\00:04:54.66
their direct
influence over the population.
00:04:54.69\00:04:58.49
And so this side you have
00:04:58.53\00:05:00.13
people who don't
really have these values,
00:05:00.16\00:05:03.57
or these
concerns or these passion,
00:05:03.60\00:05:07.04
are probably
having a real hard time
00:05:07.07\00:05:08.60
understanding the
immigrants who are coming
00:05:08.64\00:05:10.87
and Muslim immigrants
00:05:10.91\00:05:13.48
who have a passion
and it's like, "What?
00:05:13.51\00:05:15.74
What are you doing?"
00:05:15.78\00:05:17.11
It's like, it's
almost bad etiquette
00:05:17.15\00:05:23.08
to be religious in public.
00:05:23.12\00:05:24.45
Yes, absolutely.
00:05:24.49\00:05:25.82
In your opposite,
England especially,
00:05:25.85\00:05:27.19
I mean it's almost you know,
it's like spanking your kid.
00:05:27.22\00:05:30.06
But in a way, the
way you describe that
00:05:30.09\00:05:31.49
that is reinforcing my view.
00:05:31.53\00:05:34.66
That as that
happens it sort of reawakens
00:05:34.70\00:05:37.50
their identity with
a religion they once,
00:05:37.53\00:05:41.00
or at least
their family once had.
00:05:41.04\00:05:42.74
They are not seeing that
and thinking I am nothing.
00:05:42.77\00:05:45.77
No, they are
thinking this is offensive
00:05:45.81\00:05:47.84
to my culture
which was described
00:05:47.88\00:05:51.78
this way on religious identity.
00:05:51.81\00:05:53.42
He doesn't like that.
00:05:53.45\00:05:54.78
Serious going more
of a tribal difference.
00:05:54.82\00:05:56.69
Yes, absolutely.
That's the word I use a lot.
00:05:56.72\00:05:59.05
I believe the
world, the whole world
00:05:59.09\00:06:01.39
has gone past communism,
it's gone past capitalism,
00:06:01.42\00:06:04.66
certainly gone past
imperialism and so on.
00:06:04.69\00:06:07.43
And nationalism at
per se, it's not popular.
00:06:07.46\00:06:11.07
But tribal identity is primary
00:06:11.10\00:06:13.50
and what mostly determines
tribal identity is religion.
00:06:13.54\00:06:17.41
I think the world
is clustering that way.
00:06:17.44\00:06:20.58
This is being probably
one of the saving graces.
00:06:20.61\00:06:23.18
In North America they said
00:06:23.21\00:06:25.11
this is a country of immigrants.
00:06:25.15\00:06:26.95
Perhaps it's making it harder
for that to happen, absolutely.
00:06:26.98\00:06:29.72
Harder for tribalism
to raise its ugly head.
00:06:29.75\00:06:32.45
The other day at the
religious liberty seminar
00:06:32.49\00:06:35.99
someone started to try
to get a meaning of people
00:06:36.02\00:06:39.83
that were wearing
tattoos at the workplace
00:06:39.86\00:06:41.66
and they were throwing that up
as oppose to hijabs and beards
00:06:41.70\00:06:47.67
and head dresses, you
know religious address
00:06:47.70\00:06:50.11
the same about tattoos.
00:06:50.14\00:06:55.08
And so I said, "This is
a move towards tribalism."
00:06:55.11\00:06:59.51
And I read plenty of sociology
to identify it that way.
00:06:59.55\00:07:02.88
Or a Christian says
it more as paganism.
00:07:02.92\00:07:06.65
We're going back to
as a societal paganism,
00:07:06.69\00:07:10.13
but it's really
a tribal identity
00:07:10.16\00:07:11.49
because tribes used to identify
themselves by their markings.
00:07:11.53\00:07:16.06
So this identify me, a
tattoo would identify me
00:07:16.10\00:07:18.80
as like a member of
Harley Davidson Tribe or?
00:07:18.83\00:07:21.14
Some do.
00:07:21.17\00:07:22.50
Some tattoos
for prison identity.
00:07:22.54\00:07:26.98
You watch and you'll see that--
00:07:27.01\00:07:29.61
It used to be when I was a kid,
00:07:29.64\00:07:30.98
there was sort of naive that
you know more than anything--
00:07:31.01\00:07:33.78
The anchor on the forearm thing.
00:07:33.82\00:07:35.88
But again that's
a tribal identity.
00:07:35.92\00:07:38.15
And as that becomes
more general in society,
00:07:38.19\00:07:41.46
I think it
reflects tribal thinking
00:07:41.49\00:07:43.66
and the physical markers.
00:07:43.69\00:07:45.66
Anyhow, we need to
get back to Europe.
00:07:45.69\00:07:49.86
Let's get back to Europe.
00:07:49.90\00:07:51.23
But you made some very
good observations there
00:07:51.27\00:07:53.80
and the physical good reason
why it's not quite the same
00:07:53.84\00:07:56.17
in the United States
00:07:56.20\00:07:57.54
but some of the
same forces are applied.
00:07:57.57\00:07:59.27
It does seem to.
00:07:59.31\00:08:00.64
Many people say that
00:08:00.68\00:08:02.01
America is going
the way Europe is.
00:08:02.04\00:08:04.48
Europe is just a head of us,
00:08:04.51\00:08:05.85
may be 30 years or
25 years or whatever.
00:08:05.88\00:08:09.38
It's probably true.
00:08:09.42\00:08:11.92
They used to say
that about Australia.
00:08:11.95\00:08:13.46
Australia was--
time is shortening now
00:08:13.49\00:08:17.03
but it used to be 10 or 20 years
00:08:17.06\00:08:18.49
behind the social
movement in the United States.
00:08:18.53\00:08:21.96
Not standard living type things
00:08:22.00\00:08:23.33
but you know shifts in thinking.
00:08:23.37\00:08:27.17
And it's hard to
know who is copying who,
00:08:27.20\00:08:31.31
because as far as a
world culture at lowercase L,
00:08:31.34\00:08:37.15
I think the United
States through Hollywood
00:08:37.18\00:08:39.11
and other things, McDonalds
00:08:39.15\00:08:41.38
and so on is sort of
contributing strongly
00:08:41.42\00:08:43.22
to this universal blandness,
00:08:43.25\00:08:47.52
but perhaps we are trailing
behind Europe in some other--
00:08:47.56\00:08:51.53
Well, I think
we're also admitting that
00:08:51.56\00:08:52.89
Europe has a very
different religious experience
00:08:52.93\00:08:55.50
then we have in America.
00:08:55.53\00:08:57.67
America during most
of its history has had
00:08:57.70\00:09:00.10
a lot of denominations
in it, in some variety.
00:09:00.14\00:09:03.57
Where as in Europe it's
very much a binary experience.
00:09:03.61\00:09:06.34
You know, you
are either Protestant
00:09:06.37\00:09:08.21
or you are Catholic.
00:09:08.24\00:09:09.58
And that's why in a
nutshell and I have said it
00:09:09.61\00:09:11.41
but it' a good
chance to repeat it again.
00:09:11.45\00:09:13.15
That's in my view that is
the single greatest reason
00:09:13.18\00:09:16.99
why America has had a more
00:09:17.02\00:09:20.06
or a less stressful religious
environment than Europe.
00:09:20.09\00:09:23.12
The constitution is
good, the history is peppered
00:09:23.16\00:09:27.53
with religious
settlements and so on.
00:09:27.56\00:09:28.90
All of that is true.
00:09:28.93\00:09:30.27
But I think it's
the balkanization
00:09:30.30\00:09:32.30
of religion in
the United States,
00:09:32.33\00:09:34.50
where there is no
controlling power,
00:09:34.54\00:09:36.47
nobody had it over the others,
00:09:36.50\00:09:38.34
so that you just get a low
level fussing around the edges
00:09:38.37\00:09:41.44
but you really don't have this,
00:09:41.48\00:09:42.84
yeah this binary thing,
like with the Waldenses,
00:09:42.88\00:09:45.78
where you can have
literally one country
00:09:45.81\00:09:47.62
and their army
against the religion
00:09:47.65\00:09:49.08
of the other
country on their own.
00:09:49.12\00:09:50.89
Yeah.
00:09:50.92\00:09:52.25
It was very interesting
to me when we were up hiking
00:09:52.29\00:09:55.59
in the Waldensene
area in the evening
00:09:55.62\00:09:57.29
and looking for a monument,
00:09:57.33\00:09:58.89
one of several
monuments that are up there.
00:09:58.93\00:10:00.93
And young man came
by and tried to practice
00:10:00.96\00:10:05.53
his English on
us and help us out.
00:10:05.57\00:10:07.94
And he wanted to
continue talking,
00:10:07.97\00:10:10.31
"And so why are you
even interested in this?"
00:10:10.34\00:10:13.31
I have just told, "Yeah,
well I have just heard about
00:10:13.34\00:10:16.38
these people since I was a
boy and I wanted to see this."
00:10:16.41\00:10:18.78
I said, "Oh, is that."
00:10:18.81\00:10:20.62
His eyes kind
of-- eyebrows comes up,
00:10:20.65\00:10:22.28
"So you're Protestant?"
00:10:22.32\00:10:24.59
And I said, "Yeah,
yeah." And I said, "Are you?"
00:10:24.62\00:10:27.52
And he said,
"Well, I'm used to be.
00:10:27.56\00:10:30.43
I mean in my family,
my mother's Catholic.
00:10:30.46\00:10:32.79
So now we are Catholic now."
00:10:32.83\00:10:34.16
So it was just like a switch.
00:10:34.20\00:10:35.63
You know, you are
either one or the other.
00:10:35.66\00:10:37.37
There is not-- and it doesn't
00:10:37.40\00:10:39.23
really have much to
do with any thing like
00:10:39.27\00:10:41.60
maybe you're a Dallas
Cowboys fan or anything.
00:10:41.64\00:10:43.41
Like identity is
taken on an identity
00:10:43.44\00:10:44.84
but not necessarily a belief.
00:10:44.87\00:10:47.44
Right, it's,
you know, it's like,
00:10:47.48\00:10:49.38
what t-shirt you wear, you know.
00:10:49.41\00:10:50.98
Interesting. And so.
00:10:51.01\00:10:53.11
But I come with a
very good experience.
00:10:53.15\00:10:54.48
And that's the sort of exchange
00:10:54.52\00:10:56.18
that I remember from Europe
00:10:56.22\00:10:58.62
rather than seeing the buildings
00:10:58.65\00:10:59.99
and that but when
you sort of get down
00:11:00.02\00:11:02.22
to what makes it tick.
00:11:02.26\00:11:03.59
Right.
00:11:03.63\00:11:04.96
And yeah, it's just a
privilege to meet the people,
00:11:04.99\00:11:07.40
to see that
they are living in it
00:11:07.43\00:11:09.06
in different ways than we do
00:11:09.10\00:11:11.23
and that they
have different values
00:11:11.27\00:11:13.74
that may be we can learn from.
00:11:13.77\00:11:15.47
You know just it's the respect
00:11:15.50\00:11:17.21
that's at the heart
of all religions liberty.
00:11:17.24\00:11:20.31
Yes, and I do think Europe
has a lot to teach us about
00:11:20.34\00:11:24.08
the history of
religion in general
00:11:24.11\00:11:26.15
and how the Protestantism
and the more open view
00:11:26.18\00:11:32.42
of religious
practices has come about.
00:11:32.45\00:11:35.12
It didn't happen easily.
00:11:35.16\00:11:36.86
No. And it's
still not a done deal.
00:11:36.89\00:11:39.53
We have to
defend it all the time.
00:11:39.56\00:11:41.43
Yes, actually it
seems like the excesses
00:11:41.46\00:11:43.67
in what happened in Europe,
the persecution and so forth,
00:11:43.70\00:11:47.64
actually led to
people in establishing,
00:11:47.67\00:11:51.37
say the United States
to go a different path,
00:11:51.41\00:11:55.64
to not make
religion part of civic power.
00:11:55.68\00:11:58.68
And that's been a good thing.
00:11:58.71\00:12:01.78
In an age when
newspaper headlines
00:12:01.82\00:12:03.49
often carry
news of some massacre
00:12:03.52\00:12:06.99
in the name of
religion, it's worth remembering
00:12:07.02\00:12:09.99
that in France, one
of the worst massacres
00:12:10.03\00:12:15.00
took place hundreds of years ago
00:12:15.03\00:12:18.07
on the St.
Bartholomew's Day massacre,
00:12:18.10\00:12:21.44
when an edict of toleration,
there was the problem
00:12:21.47\00:12:25.71
that have been
issued sometime earlier,
00:12:25.74\00:12:27.84
gave way to para-noir
00:12:27.88\00:12:29.58
and on the
orders of the prevailing
00:12:29.61\00:12:33.31
church authorities tens
of thousands of Huguenots
00:12:33.35\00:12:37.65
were massacred
prolifically in the streets,
00:12:37.69\00:12:40.16
all the way from
the advisor to the king
00:12:40.19\00:12:44.99
and the aristocracy
of the Huguenots down
00:12:45.03\00:12:47.70
to many of the villages.
00:12:47.73\00:12:49.60
It led to a mass
exodus to the new world,
00:12:49.63\00:12:52.77
the religious
viewpoints in Canada
00:12:52.80\00:12:54.80
and some of the US.
00:12:54.84\00:12:56.57
And should be a reminder to us,
00:12:56.60\00:12:59.41
that whenever one
religion sees the other
00:12:59.44\00:13:02.48
as so great an enemy
that they have to be killed,
00:13:02.51\00:13:06.05
that the religious liberty
battle is lost all ready.
00:13:06.08\00:13:11.29
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:11.32\00:13:16.46