Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Kim Peckham
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000276A
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00:16 Welcome to The Liberty Insider.
00:18 This is the program that brings you discussion, 00:20 news and updates on religious liberty issues 00:24 and events around the world and often in the United States. 00:28 My name is Lincoln Steed. Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:32 And my guest is Kim Peckham. He is already getting tired. 00:37 We've got a couple of other programs 00:39 that you're getting tired 00:40 of the introduction so recruiter, author. 00:42 Yeah I like to hear 00:43 what you come up with each time. 00:45 Publicity, publicist for the Review and Herald 00:47 and so on and so on, 00:49 as well Sabbath School teacher to the class 00:51 that I have attended on occasion 00:53 at your local church. 00:55 And more important to this program, tourist. 00:59 The tourist! Yeah. 01:01 I know, it's not long since you took your family 01:03 on what I envied because I thought 01:06 it was a great idea to spend, how many weeks was it? 01:09 We were gone like 4 weeks. 01:11 Yeah 4 weeks rambling through Europe 01:15 or the heart of Western Europe, 01:19 Italy, France and... 01:23 England as well. 01:24 England? Yeah. 01:26 Well, that's the heart of the world, 01:27 isn't it for the English speaking 01:28 that's as the song Jerusalem says, 01:32 you know, the aim is to plant the New Jerusalem. 01:36 You know the feet that in ancient times 01:38 may have walked upon England's green and pleasant land. 01:40 You know that song? I have not heard that. 01:42 It's almost a religious national anthem in England, 01:46 a poem written by William Blake, Jerusalem. 01:50 And are they implying that 01:51 Jesus was in England at some point? 01:55 So this is like the Mormons believing that 01:57 Jesus came to America. 01:58 Well, I have had good success 02:00 in talking to Mormon missionaries 02:02 when I lived in Idaho because they will come to you, 02:04 "What do you know about 02:08 church of Jesus Christ and what did they sense? 02:10 And I said, "Oh, I know a lot." 02:11 I said, I basically see this is a American version 02:15 of British Israelites. 02:16 Listen, in England, it's the British Israelites 02:19 that do all that. 02:20 All right. 02:22 But you know what, 02:24 what can I glean from you on that trip. 02:27 We spoke earlier about going to tour-- 02:32 with the Waldensians and Barwick. 02:36 By the way I will give you an English connection 02:38 which I have mentioned on this program before 02:40 but let's remind them. 02:41 People need reminding. 02:42 In England, the Puritans agitated 02:46 and in the end their grievances fed 02:50 into a developing civil war 02:53 and the religious forces defeated the king, 02:57 put him on trial, executed him. 02:59 And then a leader who was favorable 03:01 to the Puritan cause, Oliver Cromwell 03:03 was made a religious dictator basically. 03:09 Yeah, but and it wasn't a good dynamic 03:11 but religious liberty flourished 03:12 under Oliver Cromwell. 03:14 He invited the Jewish back. 03:16 He gave full freedom to all the religious dissidents 03:19 except the Catholic. 03:21 You know, he was very anti-Catholic. 03:24 And because of that, during his reign, 03:27 if you want a better word, or rule, 03:30 the Waldensian question came up 03:33 and he, as a strong national leader, 03:37 made objection to the European powers 03:39 and he said that if the Waldensians 03:41 were not relieved, 03:43 he would lead an English army there 03:45 and win the day for them. 03:48 Well, yeah, I think that applies 03:49 may be to the work of Liberty Magazine in a way. 03:52 Does it not? 03:54 That you are letting people know about issues 03:57 in religious liberty, in the same way that 04:01 people learned about the plight of the Waldensians 04:04 and so forth and actually apply 04:06 political pressure to the Duke of Savoy 04:07 and others who were causing the problems 04:11 that it was an international movement. 04:14 And I know Protestants came from Switzerland 04:18 and so forth to help them. 04:20 Yeah, and it's an interesting point 04:21 you bring up because jumping to something 04:25 you might not guess, you know, the--thing. 04:28 I think that is a very problematic 04:30 for many western cultures 04:32 but the phenomenon of young men 04:35 usually going somewhere else to join a cause is not new 04:40 or in fact, it's sometimes encouraged. 04:43 And Americans went off 04:45 and fought in the Spanish civil war 04:47 and another European adventures. 04:50 It's not that uncommon. 04:52 And yes so, but at this time 04:54 it was a little bit more formal, 04:55 Oliver Cromwell wanted to lead a formal army 04:58 but there was a lot of sympathy within England at that time 05:01 with the Puritans and religious non-conformers 05:04 to support their fellow religionist 05:08 and the Waldenses there in Italy. 05:11 Yeah, I think they were very much encouraged by that, 05:14 that the stories had gotten back, 05:17 what was going on and the Swiss would, 05:22 you know, opened up their borders 05:23 and sent help as they were being 05:27 driven out of their homes and off their land. 05:30 And that sometimes the armies would push back 05:34 because of political pressure coming from Cromwell 05:37 and others and the Protestants. 05:39 By the way-- I need to hear more about 05:42 your last European tour but on the last one I took 05:45 which was last year too. 05:48 We went to Geneva 05:51 and there they have got reformation wall 05:53 they call it near the University as I remember 05:55 and it's probably 150 yards long 05:58 and it's carved in stone relief, 06:02 is this whole wall of the heroes 06:04 of religious liberty. 06:08 Luther is there as you would expect 06:09 and Kelvin, many others. 06:11 But what really impressed me was Oliver Cromwell was there. 06:18 I think naturally but not always automatically 06:22 he is one of the more vilified figures of history. 06:25 And what was his reputation is, 06:29 he was kind of terrorist in his own way. 06:31 Isn't that how was his reputation has come down? 06:34 What ruined his reputation was, once he would gain power, 06:41 and to most people in his time, he wasn't seen as a dictator. 06:46 He was the charismatic commander of the military 06:52 and he was loved just Like Abraham, 06:54 not Abraham Lincoln he was loved. 06:56 Just like George Washington 06:59 and his men had incredible personal loyalty to him. 07:03 And so they tried to give him 07:06 the crown at the end of it all and he turned down the crown 07:09 but he agreed to be the ruler. 07:13 And in a way that was the weakness 07:18 because when he died, everything just evaporated. 07:22 He really hadn't maintained it by force 07:25 and curiously enough even in his lifetime, 07:28 he allowed the publishing of a book, 07:31 not even a satirical book that outlined 07:33 how to kill Oliver Cromwell. 07:36 Not too many regimes, despotic 07:40 or even a representative government 07:45 would allow such a thing. 07:47 So he was very tolerant in his own way 07:49 but what was his undoing as far his legacy 07:52 is reflecting the Puritan Anti-Catholicism. 07:57 Once he defeated the king and established his rule, 08:00 then he took his army fresh 08:02 from the civil war conquest across to Catholic island 08:06 and believing that it was the mandate of heaven 08:08 that he was God's agent, 08:11 he put much of Ireland to the sword. 08:13 And at one town Drogheda, they refused to surrender 08:18 and it was the convention of the time. 08:20 If you refuse to surrender, 08:22 then the town would be pillaged and the men would be killed. 08:26 Well, he did it to a full, killed pretty much everyone 08:29 they can get their hands on and then lift 08:31 the English Protestant land owners to rule Ireland. 08:34 And that's the basis of the ongoing 08:38 Northern Ireland troubles. 08:41 And when he died things just melted away 08:46 and they invited the king's son back. 08:49 And as the sign of their hatred of him, 08:51 they dug up his body. 08:54 Cromwell's body? Yeah, yes. 08:56 Not the king's body. 08:57 The King's body didn't have a head. 08:59 But Oliver Cromwell was intact, died of illness. 09:02 They dug him up. 09:05 Judicially hung him, cut his head off 09:09 and put it on a spike over the tower of London, 09:13 I think it was. 09:14 And it was there for about 80 years, 09:16 as a warning to anybody that would oppose the crown. 09:23 80 years? 09:25 Something like that, many decades. 09:28 So the only other person that I can think of 09:31 that was vilified the same way was Wycliffe. 09:35 Remember, years after he died, 09:36 they dug him up and burned him 09:39 and threw the ashes in the river, 09:42 to just extirpate his whole memory. 09:44 And you know, most cultures 09:46 and the Christian culture is very much this way. 09:48 You don't desecrate the dead usually. 09:50 So to just disgrace the dead body 09:56 of your enemy was a pretty low thing. 09:58 But it was done to Wycliffe and to Oliver Cromwell. 10:02 Well back to thoughts of Europe. 10:06 Sure. 10:08 What other things struck you 10:09 as you were traveling around, other reminders? 10:12 I know history is everywhere you go and you-- 10:14 what else did you see that reminded you 10:16 of the religious conflicts or challenges of the past? 10:21 Well, you know that the magnificent cathedrals 10:24 in the large towns of the enormous resources 10:26 that were put into making those cathedrals, 10:29 that are now pretty much empty. 10:32 In fact, I was a little bit shocked to see that, 10:35 you pretty much have to pay to go into all the cathedrals. 10:39 You know, you would never think of like having 10:41 to pay to go into church. 10:43 But since it's mostly tourist, 10:45 they would line up outside the front door 10:47 and you pay to get in. 10:49 And may be sometimes at the back door, 10:52 if you can prove you're just there for prayers, 10:53 they will let you in. 10:55 But you gotta go in the wrong entrance though. 10:57 I remember one that you have to pay 11:00 but they're usually trying to get money 11:02 from you, for going through. 11:04 Well, it's very different. I was at, in Paris. 11:09 And early one morning as a young man, 11:11 I went to Notre-Dame 11:13 and I was able just to walk in the front door. 11:15 And there was a mass going on there 11:17 early in the morning. 11:19 And, you know, they had free access. 11:22 This time there was, 11:24 you know, the doors were only for paying customers 11:28 as far as I can see in the line of people, 11:31 you know, there was no easy way to even attend the church. 11:35 That's so bad to set in that direction. 11:36 I have always, you know, 11:40 I'm a Protestant, not a Catholic. 11:42 But I was been impressed by where I had been in the past 11:47 that the doors to Catholic chapels 11:50 and cathedrals are always open. 11:53 They don't lock them that I can say 11:55 Well, it's just they, I guess that flood of tourists, 11:58 they have to like control them somewhere. 12:00 And that dates back of course to Luther's time 12:02 and before, the pilgrims were always taken advantage of. 12:07 Yeah, perhaps. And that's even broadened. 12:10 We know back in Jesus' time, the sale of the birds 12:14 and the lambs and all the rest was, 12:15 it was quite at a deal. 12:18 There's a lot of commerce in the courtyard 12:20 of the church or the tabernacle. 12:23 Yeah, I know it, I was shocked in Milan 12:25 to see a giant Samsung outdoor television 12:29 on the side of the church in a promotional, 12:34 you know, venue there, advertising their television. 12:39 Interesting. Yeah. 12:41 Well the commercialization of religion 12:44 is moving along obviously. 12:45 Stay with us. 12:47 We'll take a little bit of a break 12:48 and we'll be back to continue this discussion 12:50 of European trails and tracking down 12:54 the religious liberty challenges of the past. |
Revised 2015-09-03