Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Kim Peckham
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000275B
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00:03 Welcome back to The Liberty Insider.
00:05 Before the break with guest Kim Peckham, we were-- 00:10 Well he was reminiscing and then we were getting into 00:12 the larger issues of religious liberty 00:15 as it concerned with the-- does it concerns the Waldenses 00:20 and the implication for us. 00:24 I am using as the jumping off point for our discussion, 00:26 the fact that you spent some time 00:28 very recently in parts of Europe 00:30 where you could see the trail of those 00:34 who had fought for the religious freedom 00:35 and the Waldenses as they are exhibit out here 00:38 at least for Seventh Adventist. 00:40 Absolutely, yeah, yeah. There was kind of a-- 00:43 It' kind of an interesting thing to me 00:44 though Adventist come from 00:45 sort of a noncombatant's background and the Waldensians 00:49 had some-- sometimes when they fought back. 00:53 A little less the Waldensian than the Huguenots in-- 00:58 France. 00:59 Yeah, in France and I'm trying to think of-- 01:01 we went on out tour, we went to their area 01:04 where they were actually fighting. 01:05 They are Waldensians. 01:07 They're all Waldensians. Yeah. 01:08 And I'm trying to remember the town in Southern France 01:10 where we went there and yes, 01:11 they actually organized a lot of ambushes 01:14 and one of the more impressive stories 01:17 was this insurgency that they were running 01:19 with the Catholic dominated authorities. 01:22 Because it really wasn't the church they were fighting. 01:24 It was the state but the state was-- 01:27 Was often goaded into it. Well, more than goaded. 01:30 They were, they were-- 01:32 the civil front for the churches wishes. 01:35 But we went to the Tower of Constance 01:39 in Southern France. 01:41 They were in an effort to control this insurgency, 01:44 the authorities had arrested the sister 01:47 of one of the leaders, Marie Durand. 01:52 And their theory was that he would give himself up, 01:55 if his sister was in prison. 01:56 Well, he never did. 01:58 I think in the end he was killed. 02:00 But she spent 38 years, I think in that tower in prison 02:04 for a faith because she refused to give in. 02:07 And it's a very evocative place. 02:10 Then you can go into the tower and see exactly 02:13 how the prisoners lived. 02:14 There was a central fire and this tower that arched 02:18 inside sort of to concave roof and the prisoners 02:23 were there with no way out, 02:25 and had to feed and sleep all on the floor. 02:27 There was a railing above it, 02:28 where the guards look down on them. 02:32 But on that stone near the cook spot 02:34 in the middle. 02:35 Over many years, Marie Durand had carved 02:37 deeply into the stone, "Resist" Resiste with the E 02:42 on the end but that was don't give up. 02:45 It's very inspiring. It is. 02:47 This courage in the face of such constant 02:50 and universal persecution. 02:52 It's just-- it's inspiring. 02:54 But I don't know, 02:56 I think from the secular point of view, 02:57 it's also frightening. 02:58 Yes, certainly. 03:00 It's like the people care this much, 03:01 there gonna be trouble. 03:03 And what you want in citizens is people 03:05 that don't care too much of anything. 03:07 I think that's why extremism 03:08 has become sort of the negative point-- 03:10 Absolutely, you put your finger on. 03:11 Absolutely and I agree with that. 03:13 A secular state has a lot to fear about people 03:18 who will put their lives on the line 03:20 for what they believed. 03:23 Morally you might think that's admirable, 03:25 but from the point of the state 03:27 they have got to ask their question. 03:28 Well, what if their principles were 03:31 unaccounted to what we're trying to do. 03:32 Then they're very dangerous. 03:34 And I think, 03:35 that's why at the end of the day, 03:36 there is the likelihood, certainly the risk 03:39 that even in liberal western countries, 03:42 they may join the dots 03:44 and decide that all extremists, all people of different faiths 03:49 that are really committed, are inherently dangerous 03:52 to a harmonious civil state. 03:54 Yes, do you think it will get to the point 03:55 where like on the Roman emperors 03:58 where you have to pledge allegiance to the state. 04:01 Yes. 04:02 Ahead of your church in someway. 04:04 Yes, I think it's very likely. 04:07 Wow! Okay, now I am frightened. 04:10 How many years do we have Lincoln? 04:12 Well, I'm not a prophet. 04:13 But you can see that these things are in the cards. 04:18 You know, none of us know the timeframe 04:20 but you can extrapolate from certain things. 04:23 Plus history never repeats itself absolutely, 04:26 but patterns of history do. 04:28 And in the US when it was stressed, 04:31 some extraordinary things have been done. 04:33 It's not a religious thing but, you know, 04:35 the US rounding up all the Japanese, 04:38 native born, naturalized citizens 04:40 most of them. 04:43 Because it's a worth try. 04:44 Some sort of traumatic event could change. 04:47 Yes, we need traumatic events but they're coming at us 04:50 at the speed of light. 04:52 And even storms as we do this program, 04:54 there is a huge nor'easter 04:57 on the eastern United States, Boston and New York. 05:02 New York shut down. 05:04 And in my view this is not a storm of the century. 05:07 But we see that these things as cataclysms now 05:11 in extraordinary measures would be required. 05:14 Like for example, something that I think is 05:19 a reasonable possibility 05:21 given the greater natural calamities 05:23 given the threat of economic disruption 05:28 if not collapse. 05:30 Given the threat of terrorism where they are not missed, 05:32 it's not impossible that we could 05:34 have some regional or even national Martial law 05:37 for sometime. 05:39 Not impossible. 05:40 It's being done in other countries, 05:43 other western countries. 05:45 And even done in the United States, 05:46 so if you go back to World War I. 05:48 In Florida, they have had Martial law in Florida 05:50 following a storm damage and so on, 05:54 where looters were shot on sight. 05:57 So let's just say, rather than 05:59 whether or not it could happen. 06:01 Pause it if it did happen, what would that mean 06:04 for religious liberty 06:05 and most people don't think about it. 06:08 But immediately you would have a conflict 06:09 between the committed faithful and the desire of the state 06:13 because any Martial law worth its salt. 06:17 The whole point of it is through the military 06:19 rather than the police to, you know, 06:22 gain peace and security in society. 06:24 And one of the first things they do is limit 06:27 the right of assembly. 06:29 Right? 06:30 You don't want large gathering of crowds. 06:33 What's a church where they're gatherings 06:35 of large numbers of people? 06:36 So there would be some sort of regulation. 06:39 Probably not probation of any church meetings 06:42 but I think it would translate into 06:44 what are the safe compliant churches. 06:48 Let them make with anyone else that's seen 06:50 a little unhinged and you know, fire in the eyes, 06:53 and type religion. 06:55 No you can't meet. 06:57 As you bring that up, I just was recalling 07:00 some breathing idea about the Espionage Act of 1917 07:04 and how it effected religious organizations. 07:08 That was a time when actually, 07:10 it was a kind of thought control. 07:12 If you did anything that was perceived 07:15 to discourage the soldiers or discourage the war effort, 07:20 you were approached and cut off. 07:23 And I know the non-combatant 07:26 Jehovah's Witnesses, several of their leaders 07:28 were actually thrown in jail for insisting on coming out, 07:32 speaking against the war. 07:34 So these freedoms that we take for granted now, 07:38 under the right circumstances become very much narrowed. 07:42 And I think even Seventh-day Adventists 07:44 were approached because of our emphasis 07:46 on prophecy and how things were going in the world. 07:49 We were approached and asked to remove 07:51 a couple of our publications from circulation. 07:52 You're one of the few people I have spoken 07:54 to that remembers that sort of things. 07:57 In the Unites States, 07:59 somewhat during World Wars I and II, 08:01 those laws were applied 08:03 and number of people around encountered them. 08:06 In England particularly, they were severally applied. 08:10 And nobody much would challenge it 08:13 because it would say national survival was at stake, 08:15 you know, lose, sink ships and so on. 08:19 And you couldn't question it. 08:22 And even back then it did bear a bit 08:26 on regular church activities. 08:29 Like in London, you gonna go church 08:31 when there is a black out? 08:33 No, no. We couldn't do that. 08:35 Well, I'm not saying that it necessarily does away 08:40 with the religious freedom, if you're not given weekend, 08:42 you can't go to the church service. 08:44 But when you're going into a war that might be years, 08:48 you no longer going to meet 08:50 or as Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld said, 08:57 surely after 9/11, he said, 08:58 "This is a war that'll last our lifetime. 09:01 So we could clearly have a change 09:03 that would restrict, say you are right to make that, 09:06 could be just open ended. 09:08 I would think in a situation 09:10 like that people of faith would have 09:11 to insist on continued worship, bring them into some conflict. 09:16 But back to Europe, 09:17 for we don't have too much time left, 09:19 what are the points? 09:20 Waldenses, Albigenses. 09:22 These were amazing stories of small religious group 09:25 who didn't-- you know we don't need to prove 09:27 that their beliefs were accurate or biblical 09:31 in every regard but they clearly stood 09:33 by their conscience 09:34 and they put their lives on the line for their faith. 09:37 Didn't they? 09:38 And that's what we come to admire about them. 09:40 It's just their willingness to lay down life, 09:44 property to continue in what they believed 09:48 in enormous pressure. 09:51 I mean that's, you know, seeing that they, 09:54 their dedication is studying the Bible. 09:56 It's something that we can admire. 09:59 That's right. 10:00 That's a great model that I think currently 10:03 your church and my church, the Seventh Adventist church 10:05 has held it up as a model because, you know, 10:09 the Bible is a very safe guide. 10:11 Within Christianity, it's to direct your activities 10:15 rather than you know some charismatic individuals 10:19 like David Koresh, 10:21 that claims he was Christ on earth 10:22 and, you know, do what he says. 10:24 Let him take as many wives or the traditions 10:27 as the Bible itself says, the tradition of men, 10:29 you don't want that. 10:30 The Bible is a good guide. 10:32 So here was a group that were trying to centre 10:33 their religious activities around the Bible. 10:36 So I'm sure that it was inspiring for you to see that 10:38 and you have the privilege of taking 10:40 your son with you, didn't you? 10:41 We did. 10:42 We took him into those churches, 10:44 and they still have a college there, 10:46 where they taught their pastors, 10:48 their barbs, they call them. 10:49 And there is a stone table where you could sit there 10:52 and gather around, you know, 10:54 like they did when they were 10:55 studying the Bible by candlelight. 10:57 And, you know, you hope that, 10:59 you-- my son will take some inspiration 11:02 from that, to see that these things 11:04 that he is learning are important 11:05 and that they will guide his life. 11:07 No. I'm sure. 11:08 You know, as long as he will remember that. 11:09 What is he? Twelve or eleven when you took him there. 11:13 But hopefully that something, it will stay by. 11:15 But all of us, these are the models of behavior 11:18 that we need to emulate. 11:20 Absolutely. 11:21 It's like I don't know how often we will be called 11:23 upon to like, risk our lives for what we believe in. 11:26 But to see that these things are important 11:30 is him to remember that they are that important. 11:33 Keep this from taking it for granted. 11:36 I have never been one of those enamored 11:39 with that old film, "The Wizard of Oz". 11:42 The scenery and the staging, 11:44 there is a little too garish for my taste. 11:48 And the saying that you're not in Kansas anymore 11:51 Dorothy is very appropriate 11:53 because it's not the way things should be in the past. 11:58 For most people the past is sort of seep year 12:00 and one dimensional. 12:04 When I traveled in Europe some months ago, 12:07 I was reminded that, 12:08 that yellow brick road of nostalgia 12:11 can just easily take you to the Waldenses 12:15 and the mountain fastnesses where they hid 12:18 from the authorities that were chasing them, 12:20 all because their religion didn't meet public favor. 12:24 There have been many people through the ages 12:27 and in the homeland, if you like of Europe, 12:32 many people gave their lives, 12:35 sacrificed peace and security because the word of God, 12:39 the faith that they held was so important 12:43 that they would take on duke, duchess, king, emperor, 12:48 anyone for their faith. 12:50 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-09-03