Welcome back to
The Liberty Insider.
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Before the break with
guest Kim Peckham, we were--
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Well he was reminiscing
and then we were getting into
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the larger issues
of religious liberty
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as it concerned with the--
does it concerns the Waldenses
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and the implication for us.
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I am using as the jumping
off point for our discussion,
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the fact that
you spent some time
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very recently in parts of Europe
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where you could
see the trail of those
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who had fought for
the religious freedom
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and the Waldenses as
they are exhibit out here
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at least for Seventh Adventist.
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Absolutely, yeah,
yeah. There was kind of a--
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It' kind of an
interesting thing to me
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though Adventist come from
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sort of a noncombatant's
background and the Waldensians
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had some-- sometimes
when they fought back.
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A little less the Waldensian
than the Huguenots in--
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France.
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Yeah, in France and
I'm trying to think of--
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we went on out tour,
we went to their area
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where they were
actually fighting.
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They are Waldensians.
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They're all Waldensians. Yeah.
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And I'm trying to remember
the town in Southern France
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where we went there and yes,
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they actually
organized a lot of ambushes
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and one of the
more impressive stories
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was this insurgency
that they were running
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with the Catholic
dominated authorities.
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Because it really wasn't
the church they were fighting.
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It was the state
but the state was--
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Was often goaded into
it. Well, more than goaded.
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They were, they were--
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the civil front for
the churches wishes.
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But we went to
the Tower of Constance
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in Southern France.
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They were in an effort
to control this insurgency,
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the authorities
had arrested the sister
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of one of the
leaders, Marie Durand.
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And their theory was
that he would give himself up,
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if his sister was in prison.
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Well, he never did.
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I think in the
end he was killed.
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But she spent 38 years, I
think in that tower in prison
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for a faith because
she refused to give in.
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And it's a very evocative place.
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Then you can go into
the tower and see exactly
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how the prisoners lived.
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There was a central fire
and this tower that arched
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inside sort of to
concave roof and the prisoners
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were there with no way out,
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and had to feed and
sleep all on the floor.
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There was a railing above it,
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where the guards
look down on them.
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But on that stone
near the cook spot
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in the middle.
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Over many years,
Marie Durand had carved
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deeply into the stone,
"Resist" Resiste with the E
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on the end but
that was don't give up.
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It's very inspiring. It is.
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This courage in the
face of such constant
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and universal persecution.
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It's just-- it's inspiring.
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But I don't know,
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I think from the
secular point of view,
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it's also frightening.
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Yes, certainly.
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It's like the
people care this much,
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there gonna be trouble.
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And what you want
in citizens is people
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that don't care
too much of anything.
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I think that's why extremism
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has become sort of
the negative point--
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Absolutely, you
put your finger on.
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Absolutely and
I agree with that.
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A secular state has a
lot to fear about people
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who will put
their lives on the line
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for what they believed.
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Morally you might
think that's admirable,
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but from the point of the state
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they have got to
ask their question.
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Well, what if
their principles were
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unaccounted to
what we're trying to do.
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Then they're very dangerous.
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And I think,
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that's why at
the end of the day,
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there is the
likelihood, certainly the risk
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that even in
liberal western countries,
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they may join the dots
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and decide that all extremists,
all people of different faiths
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that are really committed,
are inherently dangerous
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to a harmonious civil state.
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Yes, do you think it
will get to the point
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where like on the Roman emperors
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where you have to
pledge allegiance to the state.
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Yes.
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Ahead of your church in someway.
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Yes, I think it's very likely.
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Wow! Okay, now I am frightened.
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How many years
do we have Lincoln?
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Well, I'm not a prophet.
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But you can see that
these things are in the cards.
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You know, none of
us know the timeframe
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but you can
extrapolate from certain things.
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Plus history never
repeats itself absolutely,
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but patterns of history do.
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And in the US
when it was stressed,
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some extraordinary
things have been done.
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It's not a
religious thing but, you know,
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the US rounding
up all the Japanese,
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native born,
naturalized citizens
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most of them.
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Because it's a worth try.
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Some sort of
traumatic event could change.
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Yes, we need traumatic
events but they're coming at us
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at the speed of light.
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And even storms as
we do this program,
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there is a huge nor'easter
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on the eastern United
States, Boston and New York.
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New York shut down.
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And in my view this is
not a storm of the century.
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But we see that these
things as cataclysms now
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in extraordinary
measures would be required.
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Like for example,
something that I think is
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a reasonable possibility
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given the greater
natural calamities
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given the threat
of economic disruption
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if not collapse.
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Given the threat of terrorism
where they are not missed,
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it's not
impossible that we could
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have some regional or
even national Martial law
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for sometime.
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Not impossible.
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It's being done
in other countries,
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other western countries.
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And even done in
the United States,
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so if you go
back to World War I.
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In Florida, they have
had Martial law in Florida
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following a
storm damage and so on,
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where looters
were shot on sight.
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So let's just say, rather than
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whether or not it could happen.
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Pause it if it did
happen, what would that mean
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for religious liberty
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and most people
don't think about it.
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But immediately you
would have a conflict
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between the committed faithful
and the desire of the state
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because any
Martial law worth its salt.
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The whole point of it
is through the military
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rather than the
police to, you know,
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gain peace and
security in society.
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And one of the first
things they do is limit
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the right of assembly.
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Right?
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You don't want
large gathering of crowds.
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What's a church
where they're gatherings
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of large numbers of people?
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So there would be
some sort of regulation.
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Probably not
probation of any church meetings
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but I think it
would translate into
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what are the safe
compliant churches.
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Let them make with
anyone else that's seen
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a little unhinged and
you know, fire in the eyes,
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and type religion.
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No you can't meet.
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As you bring that
up, I just was recalling
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some breathing idea
about the Espionage Act of 1917
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and how it effected
religious organizations.
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That was a time when actually,
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it was a kind
of thought control.
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If you did
anything that was perceived
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to discourage the soldiers
or discourage the war effort,
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you were approached and cut off.
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And I know the non-combatant
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Jehovah's Witnesses,
several of their leaders
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were actually thrown in jail
for insisting on coming out,
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speaking against the war.
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So these freedoms that
we take for granted now,
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under the right circumstances
become very much narrowed.
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And I think even
Seventh-day Adventists
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were approached
because of our emphasis
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on prophecy and how
things were going in the world.
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We were approached
and asked to remove
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a couple of our
publications from circulation.
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You're one of the
few people I have spoken
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to that remembers
that sort of things.
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In the Unites States,
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somewhat during
World Wars I and II,
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those laws were applied
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and number of people
around encountered them.
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In England particularly,
they were severally applied.
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And nobody much
would challenge it
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because it would say
national survival was at stake,
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you know, lose,
sink ships and so on.
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And you couldn't question it.
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And even back
then it did bear a bit
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on regular church activities.
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Like in London,
you gonna go church
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when there is a black out?
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No, no. We couldn't do that.
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Well, I'm not saying
that it necessarily does away
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with the religious freedom,
if you're not given weekend,
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you can't go to
the church service.
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But when you're going
into a war that might be years,
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you no longer going to meet
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or as Secretary of
Defense Rumsfeld said,
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surely after 9/11, he said,
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"This is a war
that'll last our lifetime.
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So we could
clearly have a change
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that would restrict, say
you are right to make that,
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could be just open ended.
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I would think in a situation
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like that people
of faith would have
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to insist on continued worship,
bring them into some conflict.
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But back to Europe,
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for we don't have
too much time left,
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what are the points?
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Waldenses, Albigenses.
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These were amazing
stories of small religious group
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who didn't-- you know
we don't need to prove
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that their beliefs
were accurate or biblical
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in every regard
but they clearly stood
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by their conscience
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and they put their lives
on the line for their faith.
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Didn't they?
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And that's what we
come to admire about them.
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It's just their
willingness to lay down life,
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property to continue
in what they believed
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in enormous pressure.
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I mean that's, you
know, seeing that they,
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their dedication
is studying the Bible.
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It's something
that we can admire.
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That's right.
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That's a great model
that I think currently
00:10:00.60\00:10:03.50
your church and my church,
the Seventh Adventist church
00:10:03.53\00:10:05.93
has held it up as a
model because, you know,
00:10:05.97\00:10:09.24
the Bible is a very safe guide.
00:10:09.27\00:10:11.17
Within Christianity,
it's to direct your activities
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rather than you know
some charismatic individuals
00:10:15.04\00:10:19.68
like David Koresh,
00:10:19.71\00:10:21.05
that claims he
was Christ on earth
00:10:21.08\00:10:22.42
and, you know, do what he says.
00:10:22.45\00:10:24.12
Let him take as many
wives or the traditions
00:10:24.15\00:10:27.56
as the Bible itself
says, the tradition of men,
00:10:27.59\00:10:29.46
you don't want that.
00:10:29.49\00:10:30.83
The Bible is a good guide.
00:10:30.86\00:10:32.19
So here was a group
that were trying to centre
00:10:32.23\00:10:33.56
their religious
activities around the Bible.
00:10:33.60\00:10:36.50
So I'm sure that it was
inspiring for you to see that
00:10:36.53\00:10:38.77
and you have the
privilege of taking
00:10:38.80\00:10:40.14
your son with you, didn't you?
00:10:40.17\00:10:41.50
We did.
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We took him into those churches,
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and they still
have a college there,
00:10:44.84\00:10:46.51
where they taught their pastors,
00:10:46.54\00:10:48.24
their barbs, they call them.
00:10:48.28\00:10:49.61
And there is a stone
table where you could sit there
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and gather around, you know,
00:10:52.35\00:10:54.22
like they did when they were
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studying the
Bible by candlelight.
00:10:55.62\00:10:57.52
And, you know, you hope that,
00:10:57.55\00:10:59.39
you-- my son will
take some inspiration
00:10:59.42\00:11:02.62
from that, to
see that these things
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that he is
learning are important
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and that they
will guide his life.
00:11:05.86\00:11:07.20
No. I'm sure.
00:11:07.23\00:11:08.56
You know, as long as
he will remember that.
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What is he? Twelve or
eleven when you took him there.
00:11:09.96\00:11:13.10
But hopefully that
something, it will stay by.
00:11:13.13\00:11:15.74
But all of us, these
are the models of behavior
00:11:15.77\00:11:18.84
that we need to emulate.
00:11:18.87\00:11:20.48
Absolutely.
00:11:20.51\00:11:21.84
It's like I don't know
how often we will be called
00:11:21.88\00:11:23.41
upon to like, risk our
lives for what we believe in.
00:11:23.45\00:11:26.21
But to see that
these things are important
00:11:26.25\00:11:30.45
is him to remember that
they are that important.
00:11:30.49\00:11:33.32
Keep this from
taking it for granted.
00:11:33.36\00:11:36.93
I have never been
one of those enamored
00:11:36.96\00:11:39.13
with that old
film, "The Wizard of Oz".
00:11:39.16\00:11:41.96
The scenery and the staging,
00:11:42.00\00:11:44.93
there is a little
too garish for my taste.
00:11:44.97\00:11:48.84
And the saying that
you're not in Kansas anymore
00:11:48.87\00:11:51.47
Dorothy is very appropriate
00:11:51.51\00:11:53.68
because it's not the way
things should be in the past.
00:11:53.71\00:11:58.45
For most people the
past is sort of seep year
00:11:58.48\00:12:00.82
and one dimensional.
00:12:00.85\00:12:04.62
When I traveled in
Europe some months ago,
00:12:04.65\00:12:07.32
I was reminded that,
00:12:07.36\00:12:08.69
that yellow
brick road of nostalgia
00:12:08.72\00:12:11.33
can just easily
take you to the Waldenses
00:12:11.36\00:12:15.20
and the mountain
fastnesses where they hid
00:12:15.23\00:12:18.13
from the authorities
that were chasing them,
00:12:18.17\00:12:20.87
all because their religion
didn't meet public favor.
00:12:20.90\00:12:24.47
There have been many
people through the ages
00:12:24.51\00:12:27.64
and in the homeland,
if you like of Europe,
00:12:27.68\00:12:32.18
many people gave their lives,
00:12:32.21\00:12:35.35
sacrificed peace and security
because the word of God,
00:12:35.38\00:12:39.92
the faith that they
held was so important
00:12:39.95\00:12:43.09
that they would take on
duke, duchess, king, emperor,
00:12:43.12\00:12:48.16
anyone for their faith.
00:12:48.20\00:12:50.77
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:50.80\00:12:53.54