Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Kim Peckham
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000275A
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00:16 Welcome to The Liberty Insider.
00:18 This is the program that brings you news, views, 00:20 discussion, view point and information on Religious 00:25 Liberty in the United States and around the world. 00:28 My name, Lincoln Steed, editor of "Liberty Magazine" 00:32 and my guest on the program is Kim Peckham, 00:35 among author, raconteur and- 00:38 I like that title. 00:41 I haven't heard that one before. 00:42 And Public Relations Projectionist 00:46 for The Review and Herald 00:48 which probably could have used a little PR. 00:52 No, I'm indulging myself a bit but the connection 00:56 I should give to our viewers is this until this last issued, 00:59 The Review Herald was the printer 01:02 for Liberty Magazine 01:03 so we've had a close relationship 01:06 and then I've worked at the Review 01:08 on two occasions and I had great respect for the, 01:11 this institution which was the founding institution 01:14 of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. 01:16 Yeah, even before there was the name, 01:18 Seventh Day Adventist. 01:19 Absolutely and the church's structure was formed around it. 01:22 But enough of that, let's talk about 01:25 the Religious Liberty generally. 01:27 But I'd like to start Religious Liberty 01:30 as I said in the introduction 01:32 in the United States and around the world 01:33 but let's go around the world and across the Atlantic. 01:37 All right. 01:38 As I've been a few times and I know you were there 01:40 very recently, more recently than me. 01:42 It was just a few months ago or weeks ago now, 01:44 you and your family did a massive tour through Europe. 01:49 Yeah, we went through a few parts of Europe. 01:54 Where did you go? Which countries did you go to? 01:56 We stopped in England and in France, just in Paris 02:00 for a short time and then on to Italy, 02:02 Northern Italy for a while 02:04 and that was one of the more interesting 02:06 spots there in Northern Italy. 02:08 They are by the border of France and the Piedmont. 02:11 My wife remembered going there earlier to see the, 02:15 where the Waldensians were, the early Protestants there. 02:18 And I said, well that doesn't sound terrible interesting 02:21 to me but turned out to be a highlight. 02:23 It's a beautiful spot there. 02:25 Beautiful, especially in the Torre Pellice. 02:27 Yes, Torre Pellice which happens to be the name 02:30 of the Italian guy on the MythBusters 02:32 by the way so that can help you remember. 02:34 A tattoo guy. 02:36 Yeah, his name is Torre Pellice Tutus. 02:37 And I watched the MythBusters on occasions. 02:41 The tower, which Torre Pellice team mean literally? 02:46 Excuse me, so had no-- 02:47 an Italian to be on this program? 02:50 Yes, you should read the form you signed. 02:53 I should. 02:54 Anyhow, yeah, it wasn't that long ago, 02:56 I was there and I was bowled over too. 02:58 It was a beautiful atmospheric location up in the hills, 03:02 'cause I remember it was up from Torrent. 03:05 Isn't Torrent. 03:06 Yeah, about an hour, west of Torrent. 03:08 And you can see the mountains from Torrens there 03:10 on the horizon, as you come closer and closer 03:12 and they just start to envelope you. 03:14 Yeah, very sharp rugged rock, rocky peaks. 03:18 And I'm sure you went into the caves 03:20 there where they have the church services. 03:24 The caves they kind of represents 03:25 where they escaped to have an unnoticed church service 03:30 and we went there with our son 03:32 who just loved crawling around in the mud and said, 03:34 "Hey, there's a cavern over here." 03:36 He found a few extras for you. 03:38 So I think kids would love cave church services. 03:40 I don't think adults so much. 03:42 We were mostly like, when can we get out of here and go home 03:44 to lunch which is pretty much how we do in regular church so. 03:47 Yeah, that's another story. 03:50 We need to have a program on that some time. 03:52 But yeah, it was good to walk there in the foot steps 03:55 of these early Protestants and get a picture 04:00 for how different they were. 04:03 I mean, of course just a little later 04:05 we were in Milan and we were there 04:07 in the fabulous marble Cathedral you know, 04:11 going up to the sky where there's with its white 04:14 faA ade and while we were there in the mountains, 04:17 we were able to just walk into their 04:20 thier small Waldensian churches there. 04:23 Well, they have their, it's actually their, 04:26 not their head quarters church for the Waldens, 04:28 World Waldensian Fellowship down in the city. 04:31 Yeah, that's right. Their college there- 04:33 No, I don't think you could fit more than 04:35 two, three hundred people in that church. 04:37 A little different than the Cathedrals. 04:39 We also went up to like the smaller towns, upper, 04:43 up towards the mountains 04:44 and they had small, smaller churches. 04:46 There was a little smaller churches, 04:47 there was a chapel that they might have 50 people are really. 04:49 Is that the one with the white washed walls, interior, 04:52 Yes, very clean, wooden benches, 04:56 the Ten Commandments up there on the wall 04:58 and it made such a contrast is you could see 05:02 that they were kind of probably trying 05:03 to make a point there that it's not about 05:06 the ostentation in the wealth and all that. 05:09 It's just a simple worship, worshiping of God there. 05:13 Well, I always get troubled 05:14 at different parts in the world, 05:16 particularly Italy but you can see plenty of big church 05:20 edifices around the world and in Europe, particularly. 05:24 And it always troubles me to go into these huge monuments 05:28 of human attainment of statuary 05:33 and flying buttresses and all that sort of stuff 05:36 and I don't find God there. 05:38 It actually I find it offensive to create something 05:41 that Jesus said, "No where to lay His head." 05:44 What would you think of such places erected for faith, 05:48 they're not really emulating Christ? 05:52 And yet, you know, there's another way to look at it. 05:54 Just to kind of take the other point of view is- 05:57 Of course, we need the other point of view. 05:59 It is your line. 06:01 Not to stir but I can understand why people would 06:04 say we were here to do our best. 06:06 It's a human tendency. 06:07 To do our best for God, why am I living in a house 06:10 that is more ostentatious than the Lord's house 06:14 where I'm worshipping at? 06:15 So it makes sense to put all this wealth and all this effort 06:21 and all this talent into the place you make for the Lord. 06:24 But I think probably some times it gets tied up 06:26 in personal pride and civic pride. 06:28 Not to mention that many of those countries at that time 06:33 when they were built, you know, the peasants 06:35 and others were living around and pretty substandard housing 06:39 and they were being dried to built that. 06:41 Well, no, there's a whole- 06:42 Not to mention, since we're talking about religion 06:45 and Religious Liberty, you know, Martin Luther, 06:48 his great objection, 95 points he came up with 06:52 and I'm not sure or any of us know 06:54 all of those points but they were pretty important, 06:57 that it was precipitated by Monk Tetzel, 07:01 remember, doing the rounds throughout Europe, 07:04 raising money and people forget really what was going on. 07:08 It was over indulgences. 07:09 He was selling what the church at the time felt that it had 07:13 the right to grant you spiritual dispensation, 07:16 in this case a little less time in purgatory 07:18 on your way to heaven for money. 07:22 Some people remember that. For building program if-- 07:24 That's where I'm really gonna get. 07:25 It was all the buildings at St. Peters. 07:28 Yes, talk about a, you know, a real premium 07:30 for your donations is to get into heaven free. 07:33 Although I've been in the few churches where the building 07:35 program was about as extortive. 07:39 In fact for the point of view of Liberty Magazine, 07:41 I, you know, once a year, for the first quarter at least 07:45 I do the rounds of a lot of mostly Adventist churches 07:49 trying to pump up interest 07:50 and get sponsorship for the magazine 07:53 and what we're doing and we're always 07:56 at counterpoints with the local building program 07:58 and their aspirations for building 08:02 and supporting their structure. 08:04 Yeah, so we can be sort of sympathetic 08:05 with their needs- 08:06 Sympathetic but all, wealth, thank you, 08:08 for giving me the benefit of doubt. 08:10 It doesn't give me sympathy because I, you know, 08:15 these are the greater things 08:16 that Jesus says, you've done this 08:17 but you've neglected the real important things. 08:20 It's projecting the values and the character of Jesus 08:24 that we should be about, right? Not building a wall. 08:29 Yes, absolutely, but and it's so interesting 08:33 that how the Waldensians as they got into the Bible 08:36 and that it all began there 08:38 with Peter Waldo studying the Bible 08:40 that they went in such a different path 08:43 and I imagine some of it was a reaction 08:45 to the excesses of the established church 08:49 but they really went into a different path 08:52 and then ofcourse it's so impressive, 08:53 their dedication to that 08:55 in the face of like serious persecution, 08:57 they've been thrown out of their homes, 08:59 somebody losing their property, 09:01 been thrown out often into dead of winter which is worst. 09:03 But they weren't just, even though they ended being-- 09:06 it into those caves and smoked out, 09:09 or not smoked out, smoked to death on an occasion. 09:12 But really their approach was to branch out 09:15 and go places they were going out. 09:16 They were, we have a term in the Adventist church 09:19 for our literature ministry 09:21 which The Review was closely tied to, 09:23 Culp Ordering. 09:25 I don't know really where that word came from to be honest. 09:28 Sounds freakish to me. It does sound a little freakish. 09:30 But, you know, these have been or Culp Orders have been Bible 09:34 and religious literature sales people that could go out 09:37 door to door and in selling these materials, 09:40 have a chance to witness 09:41 to their faith to those individuals. 09:43 It's a great dynamic. 09:45 That's what the Waldensians did wasn't it? 09:46 That's right. 09:48 Every Culp Order looks back to the Waldensians 09:49 as sort of their modal 09:51 and well, the Waldensians didn't do it 09:53 for money, of course or to raise money 09:55 but to just share the scriptures 09:56 which it's just hard to imagine at time when- 09:59 Just that would be illegal. 10:01 It would be illegal for you to actually have a copy 10:03 of this scripture in your own language. 10:06 Because you are too dumb to understand it, you know, 10:08 which might be true for I don't know 10:11 who but that was the idea 10:13 that you people couldn't understand this 10:15 so it is actually against the law 10:17 for you to read the scriptures. 10:19 And I mean, I'm just I'm trying to imagine 10:21 the courage that would take to take illegal documents 10:26 and go to strangers and try to see 10:29 if they would be open to this. 10:30 It's not a direct comparison 10:31 but the risk is sort of roughly equivalent to, 10:35 now I'm forgetting the guy's, Snowden. 10:37 Well, yeah. 10:38 Really, the social disapprobation 10:42 would be the same. 10:44 Everyone's hand would be against them 10:45 because they'll threat, what it was though was 10:47 they were threatening the social order. 10:49 The control of the church through the state depended 10:53 on their dictates being followed 10:55 rather than any freelance ideas 10:59 that might come from the holy words 11:01 that they were representing. 11:03 They threatened their power. 11:04 It's an awkward position for the church to be in. 11:06 It kind of reminds you of the back in the time of Jesus 11:09 that like if they know too much about the Bible, 11:12 it's going to be a problem for us. 11:14 So we gotta keep that under control. 11:16 And then in defense of the prolets 11:20 and the princes that they're biding back then, 11:24 there an--of truth in their fear 11:29 like a lot of other editors I get letters from people 11:32 who have been reading from people perhaps 11:35 not well educated, doesn't always follow 11:39 but some of them clearly not well educated 11:41 nor knowledgeable about how to read 11:46 a piece of literature and get the sense out of it. 11:48 They read the Bible and over and over 11:50 fixate on certain things 11:52 and I get these letters that they're sort of evidence 11:56 of a disordered mind, you know, the text bubble art 12:00 and the logic, you know, just swirls around this 12:03 and they'd literally 12:06 what Agrippa I think said to Paul 12:08 when he was brought before him and he says, 12:10 "Your great learning has made you mad, Paul." 12:12 He said. Do you remember that statement? 12:14 So there is a danger that someone uncritically 12:19 and in a simplistic, simplistic we need but you know, 12:23 are not reasoned why 12:25 and I think also not truly Spirit-informed way, 12:30 read in the Bible that they could 12:31 come to dangerous conclusions. 12:32 They are not what the authorities 12:34 in the church where concerned about then. 12:36 The simple people would read this and you know, run off 12:41 and tear down the church and all the rest and- 12:43 Yeah, they sort of turned out to be right. 12:45 You're right. 12:46 It was like when Luther read Romans-- 12:48 Led to the peasants' rebellion. 12:51 You're right, all kind of things happened. 12:52 And to his shame, what he did inside of them 12:55 to what he then condemned them 12:56 and said God's, they were going to hell. 12:59 They literally dedicated them to hell. 13:02 But there was some truth in the fear. 13:04 We need, I'm getting into this discussion so much 13:07 that I'm forgetting our time 13:08 so we need to take a break, stay with us. 13:10 We'll be back shortly to continue 13:12 the European odyssey, the Yellow Brick Road story. |
Revised 2015-09-03