Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Kim Peckham
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000274B
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00:03 Welcome back to the "Liberty Insider."
00:05 Before the break with guest Kim Peckham 00:08 we were discussing 00:10 and I might have been holding forth a little too much 00:13 on my principles or my take on religious liberty 00:16 but[] Kim had some very good points. 00:19 There are lot of challenges to this assumption 00:23 that I have and we project through Liberty Magazine 00:25 that religious liberty is for all people, 00:28 it's inherent 00:29 and no matter you believe it should be respected 00:31 and allowed unless of course some 00:33 civil little public endangerments involved, 00:37 that's another question. 00:38 But it's not for me 00:40 to double guess religious viewpoint. 00:43 It has to be allowed and I have to defend it 00:45 with my life if necessary 00:47 because its an inherent right of someone. 00:49 But there are challenges to religious liberty. 00:53 It happens all the time I think and, 00:56 and what we are seeing and I think more commonly now 00:58 is challenges to religious liberty 01:02 not from other religions sometimes 01:04 but also from secular ideals 01:08 that are pressed on people, 01:12 I think maybe the Hobby Lobby case 01:14 which has been interpreted several different ways 01:17 but this idea that the government 01:19 and what everyone agrees on 01:21 in society may need to be applied to people 01:24 with[out] that religious believes 01:26 or contrary religious believes. 01:30 One of the principles, 01:31 yeah, you are right with kind of words there-- 01:33 I think I'm right, yes. 01:34 One of the principles of religious liberty 01:37 and it was even-- even the Quran 01:40 does pay lip service to this, even though they practice not. 01:44 Its supposed to be no collation in religion. 01:47 It supposed to be. 01:48 And I myself didn't find the collation in Hobby Lobby. 01:54 Because, why did you-- 01:56 Nobody was required 01:59 to take advantage of that service 02:06 of the birth control or other services 02:12 the one against the moral views of the owners of that business 02:18 so there was-- 02:19 that neither they know their employees 02:21 were required to participate 02:24 in an activity that they found troublesome. 02:27 It was a matter of personal choice 02:30 but the employer was prepared 02:33 and sued to get the right 02:35 to make that decision for someone else, 02:37 that's collation. 02:38 Yeah, so they were-- that was the incident 02:41 as you see it there[] probably it was 02:43 religious liberty of the employers 02:45 to make the choice was being-- 02:47 It was one on the religious liberty rights of the employer 02:52 and I must say that this is a complex 02:55 that you got it to an end 02:57 and depending on 02:58 the angle of religious freedom you look at 03:00 you can argue it two different ways. 03:02 And we actually had articles in Liberty, 03:04 three articles as I can remember 03:05 and two took quite divergent views. 03:09 Overall, I'm not happy with the case 03:10 because I also think 03:12 that its consistent with Citizens United, 03:17 that was the Supreme Court that held that corporations 03:21 have the rights of the individuals. 03:24 And I think that Hobby Lobby 03:26 even though its not narrowly speaking-- 03:30 well, its connected, but you know, 03:32 narrowly speaking it wasn't, 03:33 it was one case and the other fled from. 03:35 I think it shows further that corporate, 03:39 in this case employee corporate rights 03:41 can trump individual rights and I don't like that thinking. 03:44 And I've heard representatives 03:46 of one of the major religious groups in this country 03:51 decry effect that there is too much emphasis 03:53 on individual conscience rights 03:56 and not enough on the corporate rights of the church 04:00 and my ears go up with that because I think 04:02 middle ages where the church 04:04 and the state were in bed together 04:05 and yes, then the church and what it said, 04:09 its dictates for empowered and protected 04:12 but different from that church and everyone is against you. 04:17 Well, you know, I'm still sympathetic 04:20 I guess maybe to the Hobby Lobby owners 04:22 who felt it was a matter of conscience for them 04:26 but there were a lot of other people involved 04:28 so that's what you find so complicated. 04:29 We don't need to question their sincerity, 04:35 you can sincerely be wrong of course. 04:37 Of course. Yeah. 04:39 Now, yeah, it's just not worth getting into, 04:42 you know, what was their motivation. 04:44 I think its reasonable and probably did offend this, 04:47 their personal conscience sensibility. 04:50 But you know, where else can you see in society 04:52 that this tension is sort of welling up 04:55 in societal ways that the blindside people 04:59 on the principle of religious liberty. 05:03 I think that there is a lot of people 05:07 who are wondering if societal norms 05:12 are gonna affect their beliefs. 05:15 You know, there's been these other cases, 05:17 you know, sometimes involved in 05:23 same sex marriages and so forth 05:25 and the people who may not want to be 05:27 involved in that for their own religious believes. 05:31 You know the case of the-- the wedding cake baker 05:34 who tried to get out of providing a wedding cake 05:38 for a gay marriage. 05:41 These things seem like they might be 05:43 aware of the real edge of the debate 05:45 under religious liberty are right now in America. 05:48 They are. 05:49 We are perceptive I can tell you 05:52 you're right on course 05:55 with where these things are going. 05:59 How we deal with that societal is less legal, 06:03 the legal thing is fairly plain really 06:06 but how we deal with societal, societal I think 06:10 we will have a great bearing on where the mainline churches 06:13 lead us and whether we head toward 06:17 an over reaction and an attempt to gain political power 06:21 to support a particular religious view point. 06:27 You know, gay marriage to, 06:29 you know, we've talked about it a lot on this program before. 06:32 Gay marriage I'd think from the point of view 06:35 of almost any Christian, Bible believing Christian 06:39 from the certainly point of view 06:40 of someone reading the Quran 06:43 and from some other religious traditions 06:46 is problematic. 06:48 It's not seen as 06:52 morally admirable, 06:54 its not even seen as safe for the society 06:58 but if you believe in separation of church and state 07:02 even a corrupt society has a right 07:06 within its norms to enact, support for such behavior 07:11 and it should be possible for a person of faith 07:14 to decry that 07:17 and yet 07:19 allow it in the sense that we don't control 07:21 the state and the government 07:23 but just maintain our faith position, 07:26 be able to say that this is not right 07:28 as many other things aren't 07:29 but we live our lives as our faith calls us to be. 07:33 The problem is that a lot of people 07:36 and we are back to the real meaning of religious liberty 07:39 have always thought that it was the right 07:41 for their faith to be supported by the government. 07:45 So when they see their society 07:48 shifting from their faith they think that now 07:51 the obligation of the government 07:53 is to some how remove it 07:55 or enact something to support their faith. 07:59 It's really turning the world upside down 08:02 and they have had this assumption always 08:07 even though they don't state it, 08:08 this is in this case a Christian society. 08:11 It used to be a Christian society in a cultural sense 08:15 but it never ever was in the United States 08:19 as it once was in England under Oliver Cromwell 08:21 but it never was in the United States 08:23 a religious government. 08:25 A government set up to enforce 08:28 any particular religions orthodoxy 08:32 and that's a hard lesson for most people to get 08:35 and I don't think they are gonna learn it. 08:36 I really think at some point 08:38 a political faction is gonna rise up 08:40 the believers that God given mandate to 08:43 legislate away all of the social else 08:47 they see a religious moral component to. 08:50 Well, I would certainly agree with you. 08:52 That there is a separation in church and state here 08:55 and what happens in the community square 08:58 is different from what happens in the church 09:00 and the church doesn't necessarily mean to control 09:03 what happens in the community or-- 09:04 Under the civil model but very few churches see that. 09:08 Yeah. 09:10 What the thing where religious liberty comes in 09:12 is that as we come closer and closer 09:15 to being a post-Christian society in America 09:17 so its Christianity, 09:19 practicing Christianity comes down 09:21 to about half the population 09:24 then there is like a sort of a secular humanist believes 09:29 that sort of come and conflict. 09:30 These values over here start to come and conflict 09:33 with these traditional Christian values 09:36 and it becomes 09:38 an area of religious liberty concerned on both side. 09:42 Because on side says, well, we are the majority here 09:45 we are gonna have things our way and marginalize 09:48 you people on the other side. 09:51 There not a question that secularity is changing 09:54 the equation in the United States 09:55 which once was a... 09:57 more uniformly Protestant Christian society 10:01 and some of those assumptions and norms have drifted away 10:05 but I would challenge that its... 10:07 its not quite as secular as people imagine 10:09 because the religious identity remains 10:12 even as the life and the morals of the people 10:16 move in a secular direction. 10:19 Well, the real trick is that 10:20 in the past Christians were able to 10:24 have common experience and common values 10:27 and now as things drift away from traditional Christianity 10:30 there is more variety and people can't even agree on 10:33 what the right value is. 10:35 And I've recently heard Hollywood directors 10:38 complaining about 10:40 how to set up a story of good versus evil 10:42 when so few Americans agree on what is evil 10:46 or how do you set up a villain that does something 10:48 that everyone will immediately say, "Okay, that's bad." 10:50 It's a good point. 10:52 Well, it's interesting that the fox is complaining. 10:55 I think Hollywood has done a lot 10:57 to blur the distinction between good and evil. 11:00 But yeah, it is true 11:03 that we are in a transition point 11:05 and I think there is a great vulnerability 11:07 in the United States 11:09 to people that can be swung away 11:11 from traditional moral values 11:14 not realizing and obviously religious liberty itself 11:17 could be swept away. 11:19 It's true, it's true so 11:21 we would just on both side need to have 11:23 kind of a humility and respect 11:25 for what the other side is saying. 11:27 Well, respect is not tolerance, 11:30 not tolerance but respect. 11:32 And once that happens 11:34 and I think that it makes it clear 11:35 we can go forward working together 11:37 respecting each other and there is not gonna be 11:39 conflict and serve at this moral superiority 11:42 that causes more conflict and anger. 11:48 I haven't yet made anybody 11:50 who is really against religious liberty 11:52 but so many people see 11:54 religious liberty so many different ways. 11:57 The safest way I think is to start 11:59 with where Jesus Christ started in Nazareth. 12:02 He got up there and read from the Book of Azariah 12:04 and proclaimed that it was His mission 12:07 to spread good news to proclaim 12:11 release liberty to the captives. 12:14 To set that liberty those who are oppressed. 12:16 Religious freedom is freedom from the constraints of sin. 12:21 Once that's accepted 12:23 as creatures of the Creator God 12:25 we are obligated to pass on 12:27 that message of liberation to others. 12:30 Once that's accepted it means 12:32 that we have to respect our fellows 12:35 because of this 12:36 existential reality of the creator. 12:39 Its not just a legal or a constitutional 12:42 or even a historic imperative, 12:44 it's a divine imperative 12:47 and I'm required to defend the right 12:51 of another person to follow their conscience 12:53 no matter how foolish it may appear to me 12:56 what they believe 12:57 but they are right to do so is inviolable. 13:01 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-09-03