Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Charles Mills
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000272B
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00:02 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:03 Before the break with Charles Mills, 00:08 I was vexing, 00:09 I don't know if eloquence that you can say that. 00:10 Eloquence, that's the only way you vex. 00:11 With vexing vehement about 00:16 what I see is a dangerous model of talking 00:20 about the common good, 00:21 and of course that minimizes the individual 00:23 and those out of the mainstream 00:25 who are insisting on their view even though, 00:28 you know, they hold it deeply 00:29 but it's troublesome for the aggregate. 00:33 It just begs the question, the common good. 00:36 Who determines the common good? Of course, that's the point. 00:40 And when you're talking about religion, 00:42 when you deal with that sort of generic sort of religion, 00:46 it will be in fact as I about to say that, 00:51 I think of Ellen White, 00:52 our visionary in the Adventist Church. 00:56 She wrote about this and she said 00:57 the leading churches of the United States. 01:00 So the mainline or mainstream religions 01:04 were probably sort of-- 01:07 Now, get together might be term misstatement, 01:10 but there's a common agreement that yes, 01:12 we hold this, we're a Christian nation, 01:14 we believe in God and it sounds like 01:16 the apostles' creed I guess. 01:18 But, you know, we believe in God, 01:19 we believe in Sunday keeping, 01:21 Adventist don't but, you know, most do. 01:23 We believe in morality 01:26 where you love your neighbor and do this. 01:28 And, you know, and the person here 01:30 that believes in, you know, golden plates from the ground, 01:34 that's a bit strange that we won't count those. 01:36 That's how that happens I think. 01:38 And in another word that our views 01:40 but you don't hear it much before, 01:41 it's the syncretistic religious viewpoint 01:44 or as Tony Palmer in that much published broadcast 01:51 where he had the pope give a message to the charismatics. 01:55 The pope said and Tony both said, 01:57 you know, doctrine is not important, 01:59 we unite on love and fellowship. 02:02 Well, it's the half truth, 02:04 so taking a half truth and we all join together 02:07 and then loosely agree on this generic doctrines 02:10 and then anyone that holds too aggressively 02:12 to something different 02:13 is not working for the common good. 02:15 Now, while we're on this topic, 02:17 what are your thoughts on this 02:18 recent development of the Catholic Church 02:20 and the evangelicals getting together 02:22 and just sort of patting each other on the back like 02:24 they're old good buddies? 02:25 Well, on the point of human interaction, 02:26 it's wonderful. 02:27 We were supposed to do that as Christian. 02:29 Yeah, we need to be careful, you know, 02:32 it's their right and more than a right, 02:35 you know, they come by all world around is admirable. 02:38 If the pope stop by my house for supper, 02:40 I would not throw him out. I would be friendly. 02:41 Come on in, have a seat. Have some veggie burger. 02:43 Have a little chitchat with him. 02:44 Yeah, absolutely. 02:45 But if that is the basis for moving on 02:49 or sort of amalgamating it to some sort of, 02:53 you know, corporate church entity now 02:57 that's replaced these things I would be unhappy 02:59 because there are very real differences 03:02 that gave rise to the Protestant Revolution-- 03:05 Reformation. 03:07 And some of the... 03:09 Yeah, well, I laughed at it 03:10 'cause I thought it was rather appropriate. 03:12 Yes. Exactly. 03:15 No, we got to be careful 03:16 that we shouldn't be such naysay 03:18 as that nice good Christian contacts between, 03:21 in this case Christians 03:23 or amicable contacts say between Christians, 03:26 and Muslims and Buddhists which I'm part of. 03:28 Sure. Absolutely. 03:29 Now, some of our own Adventist members 03:31 are little unhappy when we have dialogues like that. 03:33 We need to talk with anyone that will 03:35 and share our faith with anyone that will listen to us. 03:39 But the danger of course with this 03:42 is we know what it represents. 03:44 There's a compromise on one side and Tony Palmer, 03:47 I thought rather gleefully told those people 03:49 that the reformation has ended 03:51 because the Lutherans have signed their life away, 03:54 well, maybe they compromised. 03:56 But the reformation shouldn't have been ended 03:59 and even if it had that doesn't negate the deeply held views 04:02 that gave rise to it. 04:04 So they are willing to sort of deny history along the way, 04:07 and some of the worst troubles of the Middle Ages 04:11 were from this monolithic church viewpoint 04:13 that then turnaround and once the come by hour 04:17 approach to complexity initial joining, 04:19 then they were turned out to be very intolerant of those 04:23 that were outside that fold. 04:25 So that's the danger in it. 04:26 It comes from an understanding a prophecy 04:29 that we're directly told if you read the Bible carefully 04:33 that this sort of thing 04:34 where people give away their minds for a time 04:38 to this giant religia of politic power and bad things 04:41 and even persecution will come from it. 04:43 And we've talked about this before, Lincoln. 04:45 Why stop it? 04:46 If the Bible says it's gonna happen 04:48 and praise the Lord, it's happening now, 04:50 that means God is coming soon. 04:52 Why stand on the way when I just of push it along? 04:55 Well. 04:56 Yes, that's fatalism and we're not fatalist, is it? 05:00 The Muslims are not quite fatalistic either 05:02 but, you know, they're known for Inshallah, 05:04 God willing. 05:06 But even that is really more under 05:10 what Islam is the subservience, 05:13 your submission, 05:14 you're being submissive to Allah, 05:15 it doesn't mean that it's going to happen regardless. 05:19 Certainly in Islam but absolutely in Christianity 05:24 there is our actions 05:25 that interact with God's sovereign will 05:27 and we're agents to make things happen 05:30 and if we slow down, it doesn't happen 05:32 or it doesn't happen when it should, 05:34 so it's a dynamic and yeah, 05:36 I've said before that there might be come a time, 05:39 in fact will come a time in the United States 05:41 where though we're not only intolerance 05:42 but avert gross persecution, 05:44 but it doesn't have to happen now. 05:47 And why would we want it to happen now, 05:49 even though I'm very big on pilgrim's progress. 05:54 And pilgrim makes his way 05:55 through all sorts of trials and tribulations, 05:57 lions and beelzebub in the city of destruction 06:00 or it leaves the city of destruction 06:01 but vanity fair and so on. 06:03 But I don't see at any point 06:04 that he is in a great rush to get across Jordan. 06:06 In fact Jordan which is emblematic of him 06:09 dying is his great test and he feels at point 06:12 he can't make it and so on. 06:14 That's the chasm between this life 06:16 and the next that people are always very cautions on. 06:21 But that whole life you see progressively got into 06:24 was living in hope and expectation of that, 06:26 so we're the same. 06:27 Of course, we want a better world, 06:29 but we live in this world and we've an obligation 06:32 to work in this case for religious freedom, 06:36 for the freedom of conscience. 06:37 We have an obligation to work for peace 06:39 and prosperity for all of our fellows. 06:41 Purely because we're here 06:43 with other creatures of the Creator God. 06:46 Why would we want something for ourselves and not for them? 06:49 And if we are on the right track now 06:50 and we're suddenly plucked into heaven. 06:53 Well, where would that lead us that don't know God? 06:55 Right, we should be under obligation 06:57 to bring in the common good, to turn it on its head. 07:01 Hobby Lobby highlighted a real conundrum for us, 07:05 because on the one hand 07:08 we want to have employee rights, 07:11 on the other hand we want to have him employer rights. 07:14 We have the workplace, what, 07:16 Workplace Freedom Act, what's that called? 07:17 Workplace Religious Freedom Act. 07:19 Religious Freedom Act. 07:20 We're trying to say-- We're trying to say it's-- 07:23 Yeah, we're trying to say 07:24 it's okay for you to do something 07:27 but I don't agree with totally. 07:31 And it's-- we need to, we need to keep that 07:34 from happening unless I agree with it. 07:37 So there is a circle going here 07:40 that we're having a hard time with in these events 07:42 that are happening today. 07:44 Well, we're having a hard time with it, 07:45 but I don't why such a hard time to be honest, 07:48 because the requirement under Obama Care 07:51 which I'm not here to defend all that I say. 07:54 We don't want people to use devices 07:57 that kill infant children. 07:59 We don't want that to happen. 08:00 But we want to give them the right to do that. 08:03 Even on this program I think I've made comments, 08:05 someone originally came from Australia 08:06 that sort of pitiful that in the US 08:08 is such heavy debate about applying 08:10 some sort of general health insurance. 08:12 Every western country has it except the United States, 08:15 but that's another question. 08:17 But I wish there was more empathy for those 08:20 who are not insured when they apply. 08:22 That seems to be absent. 08:24 But once we have this Obama Care 08:26 it required that employees provide healthcare insurance 08:29 which is not, you know, particularly unique idea. 08:35 It does not require 08:38 that the employee have an abortion. 08:40 It does not require 08:43 that they use some sort of contraceptive 08:47 that crosses the line, you know, 08:49 the morning after pill or something like that. 08:50 Doesn't require it. 08:52 That's where I think there's the disconnect 08:53 in the thinking here. 08:55 It doesn't require it anymore than by me 08:58 paying my tax to send which funds the government 09:02 to go off and do some things 09:03 that I'm scan set all sorts of education programs, 09:07 all sorts of subsidy save 09:10 for teaching evolution in public schools. 09:16 There's many, many things that are done on my dollar 09:19 through the public that I'm uncomfortable with, 09:22 but why this line of causality 09:25 should be then made so objectionable. 09:27 It does trouble me a little bit. 09:30 It does trouble me. 09:32 Where as to take it away, 09:33 I've immediately allowed the employer 09:36 to make that moral choice for someone else 09:38 who may not, may have all along been ready 09:41 to make the right choice but why should, 09:43 what right did they have to say, 09:45 no, you can't even exercise that choice. 09:47 When the God that I serve 09:49 lets us choose the wrong things on occasion. 09:53 Makes us choose badly. Yes. 09:55 I mean we often do choose badly. 09:57 But at the same time and I'm glad you heard this 09:59 'cause the God that we serve, can a corporation, 10:04 or how would a corporation be it like a God that we serve. 10:08 Can they do that? Should they even try? 10:12 No, I mean, there are lot of arcane, 10:15 we're not always arcane, 10:16 but some very complex legal issues that play here 10:19 but I do thing it's a dangerous shift away 10:22 from the rights of the individual 10:23 to the rights of the business and Seventh-day Adventist, 10:28 if you and I started the business, 10:29 we know right away we'll have a conflict in the workplace. 10:32 Are we going to keep our business 10:33 open on our holy day, Saturday? 10:35 And I'm very happy to see that Chicka Filla 10:39 for example is closed on Sunday 10:41 because that's the commitment of the employees, 10:43 but they have not harmed anyone else, 10:45 they have just deprived themselves of income. 10:48 So yes, you take the cost 10:51 but you deal with the marketplace. 10:53 Religious liberty is such a complex issue 10:56 and there are so many questions 10:57 and that's what we try to talk about 10:59 on this program also in Liberty Magazine. 11:02 We'll continue to do that and we hope 11:03 that you'll continue to watch. 11:04 Thank you. 11:06 When they follow Jesus, they sub-- 11:09 submerged all of their personal interests 11:12 in His mission, in His kingdom. 11:15 That was really when any of them 11:20 departed from that, that we had trouble. 11:22 When Judas keeping the money decided 11:26 that money was more important than mission, 11:28 that's when Jesus' very life is at risk. 11:31 And I think too when we look at Hobby Lobby 11:33 and the legal case that follows that. 11:36 Yes, those people are following their conscience in Christ. 11:40 But if business is allowed to mix 11:44 with civil affairs too much, if business, religious business 11:50 is enabled to become a secular concern. 11:55 I think we might see religion projected 11:59 in the wrong way on society. 12:03 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-02-12