Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This a program
bringing you analysis,
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discussion,
dialogue, argumentation.
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You get lot's of
information on religious liberty
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the program
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is Charles Mills,
director, suit arranger
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he was very good on pulling
the-- my seat into place.
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But he works with video a lot
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and most importantly to Liberty,
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you and I worked together
on our weekly radio program.
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Yes, yes.
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And another program we
discussed your background
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where as a preachers
kids you lived Beirut, Lebanon
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as well as Seoul, Korea.
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Let's talk a little bit
about not so much Lebanon
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but that part of the world.
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For quite a while now,
you grab the daily newspaper
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and certainly
somewhere on the front cover
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there would be an article about
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Iraq or Syria or
the Middle East that
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or Israel with the
rockets coming down
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and they're all
sort of variations
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on a theme aren't they?
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Religious
conflict, religious conflict.
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What-- how
would you characterize
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that other than that
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but how do you see that
whole part of the world now?
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What's going on?
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You know, having lived
there and watched it up close,
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it almost gets down to the point
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where they're looking
for something to fight about.
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They aren't happy not fighting.
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They need to be
fighting and of course
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we've have talked
about this before many times
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is that the
seeds of the conflict
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doesn't go back a
generation or two,
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it goes back millennia,
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it goes back
for a very long time
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and it's like
it feeds on itself.
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Every generation
hears the stories about
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what happened to
the previous generation,
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the generation before that.
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They pick up the history books
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and they see the horrific things
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that have happened
between these two cultures
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or three
cultures or four cultures.
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So what's
happening in the Middle East
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is that something that
just someone came up with,
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it's something that's
been going on and on and on
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for thousands of years.
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And within Islam there are--
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there are fractures
in the Sunni and Shiites.
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And every time
they go worship at the--
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at the tomb of Ali for example,
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they're reminding
themselves of their hurts
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and so riots break out.
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Does seem an
endless cycle going on.
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Let's just say
that forgivingness
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is not part of their way
of doing things over there.
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Well, the Quran does say
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certain things about forgiveness
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and I heard some Muslim leaders
once in a dialogue saying,
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you know, Christianity
says turn the other cheek
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but Islam says, if
you hit a someone cheek,
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he'll hit you
back twice as hard.
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And I thought that's very sad.
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They don't realize
how counterproductive
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that sort of
payback mentality is
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but it has characterized
that part of the world.
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And I think even
before the religions came,
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what does the
Bible say about Esau,
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you know, he is a wild man.
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Wild man.
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I'm gonna better be careful
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because I doubt of
indulging cultural superiority.
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Every culture has dignity
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and we've all come a
long way through history,
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but I think there's
certain characteristics
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that have been natured
even up to the present day
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and it doesn't help,
doesn't when religion enters
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and these
antagonisms turn bloody.
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I've been very troubled
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and we didn't
mention it in other program,
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what's happening
currently in Iraq
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where one faction of
Islam the Sunni faction,
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at least the
radicals were ended up pushing
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for an Islamic caliphate
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throughout that
whole area of the Levant.
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I turned my head to
the scene for a while.
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And yet they're now
fighting the Shiites
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and I thought there's
an incredible irony there.
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The newspapers
don't much mention it
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but with the
Sunni's on the move in Syria
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and now Iraq, that means
that Iran is on the back page
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and that their
influence is threatened
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because they are Shiite
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which does sort of suit
you as political address.
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And again why are we suddenly
bowing the new revolutionaries?
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The morality
aside, it's a mix bag
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and all I can think
of when I watch this is--
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you remember an author
called Rudyard Kipling?
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He was the literary figure
of the imperial days of England
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and in one of his books
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he spoke of this
as the Great Game.
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Great Game. And also--
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It's almost like that.
It's almost like a game.
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It's a game that no
one wants to finish,
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because no one actually
has figured out how to win it.
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No. That's it.
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So if we can't win it
and we don't want to lose it,
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let's just do it,
let's just play it
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and play it
generation after generation.
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I always have to
just sort of sinker
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when I see
envoys from this country
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heading over to
fix the Middle East.
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We're gonna go
there and take care of it,
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we're gonna write a few accords,
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we're gonna write a few,
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we're gonna get
some handshakes here
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and we're all gonna live
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and join hands
and sing Chumbawamba.
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That's not gonna
happen, that's not gonna happen.
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And-- you know, this--
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we have very
competent leaders of both sexes
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obviously in the
west, but it does trouble me
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and I wonder are
they-- do they understand
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what's happening
there when they send--
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Secretary
Albright or Hillary Clinton
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or Condoleezza Rice
over to tell the Middle East
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suggest what to do?
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Hey, they tried, they
tried to heal it politically.
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Now would you
understand what I'm saying?
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It is not a
political battle over there.
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That part of the
world that's-- Yes.
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The minute they
get off the plane--
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Yeah, right, right, yes.
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They are insulted.
They insulted, yeah.
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You sent a woman
over here from America?
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No.
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Yes, I think we have
advanced in right direction
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because, there is a
very confident people
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but-- culturally turn deaf I
think when we deal with them.
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You know, we
had the same problem
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as Seventh-day Adventist
missionaries in Beirut.
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We had an organization that
was head-quartered in America.
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We kept the seventh day Sabbath
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just like the Jews and
we had a women prophet.
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So one, two, three now
I'm gonna teach you about God.
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It's not gonna happen.
But good things did happen.
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Oh, absolutely. Not easily.
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Absolutely well,
it was difficult.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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So the Arab Spring, I don't hear
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anyone talking about it anymore
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and I have the
dubious distinction in Liberty
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and I'm not the only
one but I was one of the few
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who at the time of Arab Spring,
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pretty much predicted
would be where we are today.
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And I just not that I'm
anything close to a prophet
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I just read history and I think
it was written in the wind,
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that this would go this way.
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And yet we could wish it
hadn't because on this program
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we're talking
about religious liberty.
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We want religion to
flourish, we want religions
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that are
minorities to be protected
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and the story in
Iraq has particularly
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since the
invasion-- US invasion has been
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of gross
persecution of Christians,
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and not
necessarily western Christians
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there's Chaldean Christians,
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there's ancient
Christian churches
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in the Middle East and in Iraq
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that go back to
the time of Christ,
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they weren't
brought there from the west,
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that's where it comes from.
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And those people have
being killed gratuitously,
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they've either
died or they've lift.
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I saw a figure the other day
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and I think it was
50,000 Christians left in Iraq.
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I had been quoting
it was down to 200,000
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from the million at
the time of invasion.
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But now on the last
week or so we're hearing
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that the ISIS the Islamic--
what's it stand for again?
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Stands for death
that was it stands for.
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Yeah, well, it
stands for the killer fate.
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They want this killer fate
in Syria and Iraq, particularly.
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They-- they're
attacking Yazidi's
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who are Zoroastrians
they're attacking the Kurds
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who-- some of them are Muslim
but there are another people
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and so the polyglot
religious background
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and it seems like everybody
is fair game there now.
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It's-- there's no
such thing as tolerance,
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it's-- if you're an enemy,
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if you're foreign
agent cut your head off
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and in fact I was--
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I'm gonna write an editorial
on this in the next few days.
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But I thought of that
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this wasn't the queen
in Alice in Wonderland
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she says off with their
heads, off with their heads.
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Off with their heads.
Like it's the easy answer.
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That's the answer. Yeah.
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Well, that's not the answer
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when you're
talking religious liberty.
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It's not the answer at all.
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Are we talking
religious liberty here?
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That you just opened this up.
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Are we talking
religious liberty issues
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in the Middle East right now?
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Because-- it doesn't sound like
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that they are
trying to convert anybody,
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it doesn't sound like
they are trying to say
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come on over to my way of
thinking, believe as I do.
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It simply says if you don't--
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if you don't
believe the way I am
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you are my enemy and
I'm going to kill you.
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That's not religion
liberty in any shape or form.
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Well, the-- ISIS
did apply the Quran
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in some of the
areas that they conquered.
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Well, they're using
it as a-- as an excuse.
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Quran says it that
they are the convert
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and if they
reject they die but--
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So did they hold tent
meetings in these towns
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before they took out everybody?
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You convert or
die, but certain groups
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because the Quran is very
charitable toward Christians,
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people of the book.
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So people of the book can stay--
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People know that.
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Yeah, they can stay
as people of the book
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but they had to pay the
Dhimmi the Quranic mandated tax.
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And then you're of course
are under a certain cloud.
00:10:07.69\00:10:12.11
To their credit most Islamic
countries in the long haul
00:10:12.14\00:10:15.30
were fairly tolerant as
long as the tax was paid,
00:10:15.33\00:10:19.30
but these guys are applying
it in a very blood thirsty,
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aggressive way like, like--
you get 10 minutes to decide
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and then so-- 10,000 of
these people fled the village
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because they knew that
regardless of what they said
00:10:29.86\00:10:32.80
they were likely
gonna be put to the sword.
00:10:32.83\00:10:35.82
Not religious liberty.
00:10:35.85\00:10:36.93
You're right it's
very difficult program
00:10:36.96\00:10:39.61
and-- most regretting
we got to the Middle East
00:10:39.64\00:10:41.94
because when you define it
00:10:41.97\00:10:43.00
on the point of
religious liberty
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there's not much traction
to get when we talk about it.
00:10:44.29\00:10:48.65
So what is-- what is happening,
is this a political battle?
00:10:48.68\00:10:51.48
Is this-- excuse me, is
this-- this is something
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that we as a Christian nation
00:10:54.58\00:10:58.57
that's not the
right-- we as a nation--
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Christian society. Society.
00:11:00.51\00:11:01.79
We as a Christian
society who live in a nation
00:11:01.82\00:11:04.36
that allows Christian societies
00:11:04.39\00:11:06.09
to coexist against
non-Christian societies,
00:11:06.12\00:11:09.22
do we have anything to
offer them as a nation?
00:11:09.25\00:11:13.31
As a country?
00:11:13.34\00:11:14.53
As a government? As
a political machine?
00:11:14.56\00:11:16.96
Do we have anything
to put in our briefcase
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and take over there
and say here is the answer?
00:11:19.34\00:11:21.72
Well, I think the western
in particularly United States
00:11:21.75\00:11:25.70
does still lives
something to offer
00:11:25.73\00:11:27.89
and I have got
to give good credit
00:11:27.92\00:11:29.91
to the government since 9/11.
00:11:29.94\00:11:32.21
The United States
government from the federal
00:11:32.24\00:11:34.30
to the state levels has
reiterated our commitment
00:11:34.33\00:11:38.44
to the separation
of church and state
00:11:38.47\00:11:40.11
and to enforcing,
well, that's a wrong word,
00:11:40.14\00:11:43.41
to supporting
religious plurality.
00:11:43.44\00:11:45.18
Supporting, okay.
00:11:45.21\00:11:47.35
I see no evidence other
than the security services
00:11:47.38\00:11:50.90
who might profile certain people
00:11:50.93\00:11:52.83
but I see no evidence from
point of administering the law
00:11:52.86\00:11:56.75
and stating what
our principles are.
00:11:56.78\00:11:59.18
We've wavered
from allowing Islam
00:11:59.21\00:12:01.83
in this case or
any other religion
00:12:01.86\00:12:04.17
that's acting
badly in its home land
00:12:04.20\00:12:06.71
that we're not
going to punish them here,
00:12:06.74\00:12:08.25
they have the same ruts,
00:12:08.28\00:12:10.28
the same allowance
to practice regardless
00:12:10.31\00:12:14.15
and that's a good
thing and that's a modeled
00:12:14.18\00:12:16.31
that we could hope we'd someday,
00:12:16.34\00:12:18.60
somehow transferred to
other parts of the world.
00:12:18.63\00:12:21.89
I have found it
and we talk about this
00:12:21.92\00:12:23.75
on the radio program that we do,
00:12:23.78\00:12:25.11
I have found that, I
find great joy in the fact
00:12:25.14\00:12:30.89
that when I smile and
wave at my Muslim neighbor
00:12:30.92\00:12:35.76
or I go to his shop or
her shop and I shop there
00:12:35.79\00:12:38.88
and I allow that
person to live in freedom
00:12:38.91\00:12:42.80
and in openness
whether that's a Muslim
00:12:42.83\00:12:47.22
or someone else
that isn't like I am.
00:12:47.25\00:12:50.59
That I'm actually firing
a shot in the Middle East,
00:12:50.62\00:12:53.44
I'm saying you guys are wrong,
00:12:53.47\00:12:56.23
you guys are fighting
for the wrong thing here.
00:12:56.26\00:12:58.43
You're going
about at the wrong way.
00:12:58.46\00:12:59.55
I'm in the battle by
simply being a loving,
00:12:59.58\00:13:03.21
kind, compassionate,
supportive Christian.
00:13:03.24\00:13:08.38
Under the personal human level
00:13:08.41\00:13:10.69
that's what we should do on this
00:13:10.72\00:13:12.80
we can't do much more than that.
00:13:12.83\00:13:14.95
And-- we've spoken
about it in another context.
00:13:14.98\00:13:18.53
Yes, there is a
structural level the--
00:13:18.56\00:13:21.63
by two governments
00:13:21.66\00:13:22.71
and the whole
society and how its ordered.
00:13:22.74\00:13:24.95
But on the personal level
that way you can really make
00:13:24.98\00:13:28.03
this changes
eventually not immediately.
00:13:28.06\00:13:30.74
And you and I and those watching
00:13:30.77\00:13:32.69
we're all center stage on that
00:13:32.72\00:13:35.70
and we can make
a huge difference.
00:13:35.73\00:13:38.20
We can show that our religion
impels us to act charitably.
00:13:38.23\00:13:44.37
What I think in the
governmental sense in the US
00:13:44.40\00:13:47.29
what we need to-- word of
and so far have successfully,
00:13:47.32\00:13:51.80
we shouldn't allow any group,
00:13:51.83\00:13:53.12
whether it's
fundamentalists Christians
00:13:53.15\00:13:55.57
or whether it's a--
what's already developed,
00:13:55.60\00:13:58.20
I closing it Muslim
sub community in an area.
00:13:58.23\00:14:01.93
We shouldn't
allow either to project
00:14:01.96\00:14:04.68
their religious values
into the legal marketplace.
00:14:04.71\00:14:10.09
We need to break for the moment
00:14:10.12\00:14:12.32
and I will bring
up this point later
00:14:12.35\00:14:13.63
because I want to spell it out.
00:14:13.66\00:14:15.52
Stay with us in our discussion
00:14:15.55\00:14:17.30
of both the Middle
East and the United States
00:14:17.33\00:14:19.53
on conflict on
religious matters.
00:14:19.56\00:14:22.55