Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Charles Mills
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000270A
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00:17 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:18 This is a program bringing you news, views, discussion 00:21 and up-to-date analysis of religious liberty 00:24 around the world. 00:26 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine 00:29 and my guest on this program is, Charles Mills. 00:33 Many faceted gentlemen but most particular 00:36 you work with me on our Liberty radio programs. 00:40 I'm a student you yours. Oh, well. 00:42 Have been for many years, yes. 00:44 You probably, you discovered things 00:45 that you wouldn't, would rather not-- 00:47 No they're all good things, all good things. 00:49 But we do have some good discussions 00:51 and I know you understand the template as I was saying 00:55 the other day that I work from. 00:58 Religious liberty is important 00:59 or we wouldn't have this radio program 01:02 and the world wouldn't be so in turmoil over a religion. 01:07 So there's a solution we looking for, 01:09 but I think the big part of the challenge 01:12 to involve young people 01:14 in understanding religious liberty. 01:16 Aren't we involving Arab spring, 01:19 young people in the streets? 01:20 Yeah, well, I was about to say that 01:22 in the Middle East now there's lots of young people. 01:23 Young people. 01:24 That are cutting off heads, that are you know, 01:29 they're sitting in the back of the pick-up 01:30 with the machine gun, 01:31 advancing their religion that way. 01:35 May be we need a peace corps equivalent of young people 01:39 defending out around the world arguing for religious freedom 01:42 and understanding and nonviolence 01:47 and not synchrotize, 01:49 because I truly believe 01:50 there are right and wrong religions 01:52 in a philosophical spiritual theological sense. 01:56 But we need to empower all people of faith 01:59 to practice their faith 02:01 and not be inhibited by other people 02:03 and not to reach out in violence 02:04 to the other people. 02:05 And young people could be the catalyst 02:08 for that sort of a movement. 02:09 When you say that I think back on my own church 02:13 and what I have seen through the years, 02:17 where do you see this beginning? 02:18 I may ask you a question, 02:19 where do you see this beginning, Lincoln? 02:21 We want to reach young people with the truth about 02:23 religious liberty and freedom, 02:25 we want to make sure that they understand the principles 02:28 and that they are exercising 02:29 religious freedom in their realm. 02:32 Where do we start? How do we start? 02:34 Who is motivating this. 02:35 Well, we start with this program. 02:36 We will start right, 02:37 we will start right here, good idea. 02:38 But, you know, many of the social trends 02:42 are not favorable to what we are suggesting here, 02:47 We are backing the world 02:48 in another words when we try to do that. 02:49 All right. Okay. 02:50 Obviously, in the most simple practical level 02:53 the young people are alive now will live to-- 02:56 I use the term once was misused. 02:58 Well, it was told to me 02:59 when I was young and having troubles. 03:01 But I used it once to one of my family 03:03 and they misused it 03:04 but, you know, the young people now 03:06 will live to dance on their graves. 03:08 They gonna inherit the world-- Yes, they are. 03:10 If it goes on long enough. 03:12 So rightly or wrongly it's this 03:15 but many of the markers of the new generation 03:19 are not positive. 03:21 They are-- yes, they are socially connected, 03:24 they're activist and some of them 03:26 tweeted their way to sort of revolutions 03:29 in different countries 03:30 but we know that they are fairly self absorbed, 03:34 they are not inter moral absolutes 03:36 which is unable to hold gay marriage thing 03:38 for just to pluck something at a thin air. 03:43 I worry about some of these young people 03:45 because they are not into strong belief 03:49 and I know that this generation as even the one before them 03:53 have been softened up to do what they're told, 03:57 even thought there's a lot of talking 03:58 in the United States about individualism. 04:00 In reality people are used to being told 04:03 what to do if the government 04:05 or the authority figure say you did this. 04:07 They don't question it anymore. 04:09 Like just want evidence and I know 04:11 I've given it on this program. 04:13 The military have been trying for a long, long time 04:18 to get soldiers to kill 04:20 that's the goal of the military. 04:21 World wars one and two, 04:23 most soldiers would not even fire their gun. 04:25 It's a dirty secret of warfare. 04:28 In the Vietnam War it was not much more than 50 percent 04:32 went up a little higher and Gulf war one. 04:35 Gulf two and Iraq unknown to have 04:39 someone refuse to shoot or kill. 04:41 So there's something changed and they were experiments made 04:45 that a number of people know about. 04:46 I'm sure some of our viewers have heard of them 04:49 where they got usually young people 04:52 in a controlled environment 04:53 they had someone in that chair 04:56 and a rheostat that had markings of about, 04:59 you know, threshold of pain 05:00 and all the rest and on the top death. 05:02 And on command they were told to administer it. 05:05 And the other end of this someone was connected 05:07 to the other end of this thing in other words. 05:08 Someone sitting in a chair acting. 05:09 Acting, okay. 05:10 And very high percentage when they are given the command 05:14 would turn it on and kill that person. 05:16 They believe they would do it. 05:17 They believe they are actually killing this person. 05:20 But they were-- we've condition the whole generation 05:23 not to really resist in this case an immoral act. 05:29 And yet we look back to World War II 05:31 with the German soldiers and some citizenry 05:34 that did incredible things and their excuse was, 05:36 I was just following orders. 05:37 And we not accept that, 05:38 but we really created a phenomenon 05:43 with the new generation 05:44 who are not necessarily going to resist. 05:47 I have a thought on that and let me just fly it by you 05:50 and see what you think. 05:52 How did our young people arrive at such a position 05:59 where they're willing to do whatever they want to do? 06:01 I call it the Mr. Roger's affect. 06:04 You're gonna blame that old guy. 06:06 He was a nice guy and he did wonderful things, 06:08 but his message was 06:10 you are fine just the way you are. 06:12 Well, no-- 06:13 You don't have to change, you are just great. 06:16 I think it's the Dr. Spot. 06:17 Well, it began with Dr. Spot in the 50's, yeah, absolutely. 06:19 Yeah, you're right and I think you are onto something. 06:21 I think that's where it was, I'm okay, you're okay 06:25 and everything you do is smartly. 06:26 Okay, I'm not gonna judge you. 06:28 You don't have to change, 06:29 you are fine just the way you are. 06:31 And so if the way you are happens 06:33 to be a violent person, 06:34 if the way you are happens to be someone 06:36 who can take the rheostat and put it on, 06:39 kill that's fine, everything is fine 06:41 because you are fine just the way you are. 06:44 Shouldn't we have been telling young people 06:46 you need to be not the way you are 06:49 but the way God was or Christ was? 06:52 They miss the point. 06:53 They put as their standard themselves. 06:57 Would you want to be your-- 06:58 would you want to be the standard 06:59 for the world, Lincoln? 07:00 I would not want to be the standard for the world. 07:02 No and we need to insert values 07:04 and even in our in own church context 07:06 this bothers me, knowing its not-- 07:10 you know, I have two young people 07:11 at home a 12 and 16-year-old. 07:13 They're wonderful young kids 07:15 and I see worlds of possibilities. 07:19 They have good intentions in many regards. 07:22 So I'm not just to criticize young people 07:25 but what we've just said does apply in a blanket sense 07:29 to the newer generations. 07:31 And it bothers me that in our church 07:35 the leaders see that the money is paid 07:38 inordinately by older people who are dying, 07:43 that the attendance is more and more the older people. 07:45 And so they are in a rush to involve the young people 07:48 but the way they are doing it is to hand them-- 07:51 Yes, yes. 07:52 The program, hand them control of programs, 07:55 and I think that's almost suicidal. 07:57 We have to not force them to be as the old people were, 08:02 that's probably never gonna happen, 08:04 but we need to inculcate the spiritual values 08:08 and conscience for what are the better word into them 08:10 so that they can pick up the torch in the right way. 08:13 But don't give it do them as they now are. 08:16 And on religious liberty we can't-- 08:18 I think it's very dangerous to expect 08:21 that as we fade away that this new generation 08:24 will inherently understand religious liberty. 08:27 One cue and maybe I'm connecting the wrong doubts 08:29 but the US State Department just recently made a statement 08:33 that in all of the dealings with other countries 08:35 they will now require that they all grant full gay rights, 08:40 gay marriage and all those things. 08:42 Well, that's a very socially disruptive thing within the US. 08:46 It putted people of faith against secularism and so on, 08:50 but that's return to power 08:52 on this mentality of the young people 08:54 where they are not critical about this. 08:56 They're taught to sort of, you know, all things go, 08:59 I don't have a moral absolute 09:01 and if society wants that's fine. 09:05 With religious liberty you've got to be prepared 09:08 to stand alone if necessary on this matter of principle 09:11 and that runs against everything 09:14 that's being taught and by us most as even given to this-- 09:19 They don't want to stand alone today. 09:21 They want to stand-- if they are standing alone 09:23 they want to change everybody 09:25 so that everybody believes the way they will do. 09:27 Whatever their belief system, 09:30 their religion, their sexual orientation, 09:31 we want everyone not only to accept me 09:34 but to agree with me and to accommodate me. 09:37 And there is a problem with that in that 09:40 there is no give and take, it's not necessary. 09:43 There's no-- I don't have to change, 09:45 I'm just the way I'm, Mr. Rogers loving me, 09:48 the neighborhood loving me. 09:49 I'm just the way I am so, 09:51 if you want me to be in your world 09:53 then the world you have to change to be like me. 09:56 And you've given me an idea-- 09:58 That's dangerous. That's dangerous. 10:00 They're people watching who don't even subscribe-- 10:02 That's dangerous. 10:03 To religion and yet believe in religious liberty, 10:05 you'll have to suspend your thoughts for a minute. 10:08 But within the church I think a big part of the loss 10:12 is we are not taking about, you say change. 10:15 We are not talking about the ultimate change 10:16 of a conversion experience. 10:20 That's been the passage through the ages, 10:22 since Jesus endorsed it and of course, 10:26 John the Baptist was doing it before Jesus, 10:28 and it has an ancient history. 10:30 But the-- and affect in the Old Testament 10:32 even Paul, sorry Saul, King Saul 10:35 who went bad at the end 10:37 but he was given a new heart by God. 10:38 His whole thinking was changed. 10:41 And in it for the Christian, 10:42 Baptism is a representation of a, 10:47 and a totally turn about in you moral values, 10:51 in your point of reference in your life 10:53 and your internalization of a commitment 10:57 to God to the principles of the kingdom of heaven 11:00 rather than the kingdom of man and when that's done, 11:03 an awful lot of the things within the church structure 11:06 and perhaps then by extension in society 11:08 take care of themselves. 11:09 But you can't just sort of never ask the question 11:12 or ask for the commitment that goes with that 11:14 and then think that young people 11:17 just by the mere factor their replacement generation 11:20 will move in and run the church like, 11:23 you know, some of the godly men and women of SDA world 11:26 is to miss the point of religion. 11:29 And I'm always referring to it on a political sense 11:32 and come back to those that don't believe in religion. 11:34 But you know in the Vietnam War which was not one 11:40 obviously in our lost will that this mix up 11:44 but they did come to the realization. 11:45 It wasn't lost will, 11:47 I've ever heard that one before I love that. 11:48 Vietnam War was not lost will. 11:50 Well, I remember the helicopters leaving the-- 11:53 Yes, yes. 11:54 What I mean you can retreat in good order, 11:56 but it was not a good order. 11:58 I remember the helicopters pushed over the edge of the-- 12:01 The carrier. 12:03 But back then I used the term belatedly 12:06 that really got to the nitty-gritty. 12:08 They said it was the battle for hearts and minds, 12:10 that's really what was going on, 12:13 and was lost very badly. 12:15 You're gonna make me lie and burning villages 12:17 and that doesn't get the hearts and minds. 12:21 And of course I believe you really 12:24 hardly awakened win it by a point of a gun anyhow 12:26 by invading another country. 12:29 Even allowing we might have done it 12:31 with some high intension to start with, you know, 12:34 I don't want to get into the politics of it per say, 12:36 I'm describing what happened. 12:39 But hearts and minds is where it's about, 12:41 we've got to gain hearts and minds 12:43 and deeper understanding, 12:45 a spiritual viewpoint for a new generation 12:47 and then rally them to the cause, 12:50 have them speak out, enact in practical voice 12:54 that show true religious liberty. 12:56 We are sending them into a war without training. 12:59 See a lot of-- even within our church 13:01 a lot of it has become a legal discussion about 13:03 separation of church and state, 13:05 and about winning this accommodation case 13:08 so that they are not immaterial things 13:11 but they are not central to what we really on about. 13:15 They symptomatic on the fringes. 13:19 When I look at our church and of course, 13:21 I have to talk about our church 13:22 because I don't know that much about others people's church, 13:24 but I know about my church. 13:25 When I look at our church and the issues 13:27 is that it is facing, it seems like 13:31 we are kicking against the pricks. 13:32 We are-- we are making battles in wars 13:36 that can't be won unless we have a certain mindset 13:39 and if we don't have the mindset 13:41 we are going into battle unprepared, unarmed 13:44 and we're gonna loose not well. 13:48 That's exactly what's gonna happen with our church-- 13:49 You like that? 13:50 I love that, I'm gonna use that, 13:52 I'm gonna write a book about that, how to lose badly. 13:54 I like that good, okay, good. 13:57 Well, you know, I was gonna give an example 14:00 but it's probably not the best but at least Dunkirk. 14:03 They saved the British army, got them across, 14:05 they lost with some dignity. 14:07 They lost well. 14:09 That's what I was talking about. 14:11 We will be back after a short break 14:12 to continue this discussion. 14:14 Please stay with us. 14:15 I think you'll find it interesting. |
Revised 2015-01-29