Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program bringing
you news, views, discussion
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and up-to-date
analysis of religious liberty
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around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on this
program is, Charles Mills.
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Many faceted
gentlemen but most particular
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you work with me on
our Liberty radio programs.
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I'm a student
you yours. Oh, well.
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Have been for many years, yes.
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You probably,
you discovered things
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that you
wouldn't, would rather not--
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No they're all good
things, all good things.
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But we do have
some good discussions
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and I know you understand
the template as I was saying
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the other day that I work from.
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Religious liberty is important
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or we wouldn't
have this radio program
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and the world wouldn't be
so in turmoil over a religion.
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So there's a
solution we looking for,
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but I think the big
part of the challenge
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to involve young people
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in understanding
religious liberty.
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Aren't we involving Arab spring,
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young people in the streets?
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Yeah, well, I
was about to say that
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in the Middle East now
there's lots of young people.
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Young people.
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That are cutting off
heads, that are you know,
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they're sitting in
the back of the pick-up
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with the machine gun,
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advancing their
religion that way.
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May be we need a peace
corps equivalent of young people
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defending out around the world
arguing for religious freedom
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and
understanding and nonviolence
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and not synchrotize,
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because I truly believe
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there are right
and wrong religions
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in a philosophical
spiritual theological sense.
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But we need to
empower all people of faith
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to practice their faith
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and not be
inhibited by other people
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and not to reach out in violence
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to the other people.
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And young people
could be the catalyst
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for that sort of a movement.
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When you say that I
think back on my own church
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and what I have
seen through the years,
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where do you see this beginning?
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I may ask you a question,
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where do you see
this beginning, Lincoln?
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We want to reach young
people with the truth about
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religious liberty and freedom,
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we want to make sure that
they understand the principles
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and that they are exercising
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religious
freedom in their realm.
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Where do we
start? How do we start?
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Who is motivating this.
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Well, we start
with this program.
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We will start right,
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we will start
right here, good idea.
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But, you know, many
of the social trends
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are not favorable to
what we are suggesting here,
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We are backing the world
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in another words
when we try to do that.
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All right. Okay.
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Obviously, in the
most simple practical level
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the young people are
alive now will live to--
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I use the term once was misused.
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Well, it was told to me
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when I was young
and having troubles.
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But I used it once
to one of my family
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and they misused it
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but, you know,
the young people now
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will live to
dance on their graves.
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They gonna inherit
the world-- Yes, they are.
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If it goes on long enough.
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So rightly or wrongly it's this
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but many of the
markers of the new generation
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are not positive.
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They are-- yes, they
are socially connected,
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they're
activist and some of them
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tweeted their way
to sort of revolutions
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in different countries
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but we know that they
are fairly self absorbed,
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they are not
inter moral absolutes
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which is unable to
hold gay marriage thing
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for just to pluck
something at a thin air.
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I worry about some
of these young people
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because they are
not into strong belief
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and I know that this generation
as even the one before them
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have been softened up
to do what they're told,
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even thought
there's a lot of talking
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in the United
States about individualism.
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In reality people
are used to being told
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what to do if the government
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or the authority
figure say you did this.
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They don't question it anymore.
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Like just want
evidence and I know
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I've given it on this program.
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The military have been
trying for a long, long time
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to get soldiers to kill
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that's the goal of the military.
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World wars one and two,
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most soldiers would
not even fire their gun.
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It's a dirty secret of warfare.
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In the Vietnam War it was
not much more than 50 percent
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went up a little
higher and Gulf war one.
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Gulf two and
Iraq unknown to have
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someone refuse to shoot or kill.
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So there's something changed
and they were experiments made
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that a number of
people know about.
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I'm sure some of our
viewers have heard of them
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where they got
usually young people
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in a controlled environment
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they had someone in that chair
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and a rheostat that
had markings of about,
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you know, threshold of pain
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and all the rest
and on the top death.
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And on command they
were told to administer it.
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And the other end of
this someone was connected
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to the other end of
this thing in other words.
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Someone sitting
in a chair acting.
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Acting, okay.
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And very high percentage
when they are given the command
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would turn it on
and kill that person.
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They believe they would do it.
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They believe they are
actually killing this person.
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But they were-- we've
condition the whole generation
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not to really resist in
this case an immoral act.
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And yet we look
back to World War II
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with the German
soldiers and some citizenry
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that did incredible
things and their excuse was,
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I was just following orders.
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And we not accept that,
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but we really
created a phenomenon
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with the new generation
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who are not
necessarily going to resist.
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I have a thought on that
and let me just fly it by you
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and see what you think.
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How did our young people
arrive at such a position
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where they're willing to
do whatever they want to do?
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I call it the
Mr. Roger's affect.
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You're gonna blame that old guy.
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He was a nice guy and
he did wonderful things,
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but his message was
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you are fine
just the way you are.
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Well, no--
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You don't have to
change, you are just great.
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I think it's the Dr. Spot.
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Well, it began with Dr. Spot
in the 50's, yeah, absolutely.
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Yeah, you're right and I
think you are onto something.
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I think that's where it
was, I'm okay, you're okay
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and everything
you do is smartly.
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Okay, I'm not gonna judge you.
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You don't have to change,
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you are fine
just the way you are.
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And so if the
way you are happens
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to be a violent person,
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if the way you are
happens to be someone
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who can take the
rheostat and put it on,
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kill that's fine,
everything is fine
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because you are fine
just the way you are.
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Shouldn't we have
been telling young people
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you need to be
not the way you are
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but the way God
was or Christ was?
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They miss the point.
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They put as their
standard themselves.
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Would you want to be your--
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would you want
to be the standard
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for the world, Lincoln?
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I would not want to be
the standard for the world.
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No and we need to insert values
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and even in our
in own church context
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this bothers me,
knowing its not--
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you know, I
have two young people
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at home a 12 and 16-year-old.
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They're wonderful young kids
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and I see worlds
of possibilities.
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They have good
intentions in many regards.
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So I'm not just to
criticize young people
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but what we've just said
does apply in a blanket sense
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to the newer generations.
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And it bothers me
that in our church
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the leaders see
that the money is paid
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inordinately by
older people who are dying,
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that the attendance is
more and more the older people.
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And so they are in a rush
to involve the young people
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but the way they are
doing it is to hand them--
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Yes, yes.
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The program, hand
them control of programs,
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and I think
that's almost suicidal.
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We have to not force them
to be as the old people were,
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that's probably
never gonna happen,
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but we need to
inculcate the spiritual values
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and conscience for what
are the better word into them
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so that they can pick up
the torch in the right way.
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But don't give it do
them as they now are.
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And on religious
liberty we can't--
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I think it's very
dangerous to expect
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that as we fade away
that this new generation
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will inherently
understand religious liberty.
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One cue and maybe I'm
connecting the wrong doubts
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but the US State Department
just recently made a statement
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that in all of the
dealings with other countries
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they will now require that
they all grant full gay rights,
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gay marriage and
all those things.
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Well, that's a very socially
disruptive thing within the US.
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It putted people of faith
against secularism and so on,
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but that's return to power
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on this mentality
of the young people
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where they are not
critical about this.
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They're taught to sort
of, you know, all things go,
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I don't have a moral absolute
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and if society
wants that's fine.
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With religious liberty
you've got to be prepared
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to stand alone if necessary
on this matter of principle
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and that runs against everything
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that's being taught and by
us most as even given to this--
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They don't want
to stand alone today.
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They want to stand--
if they are standing alone
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they want to change everybody
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so that everybody
believes the way they will do.
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Whatever their belief system,
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their religion,
their sexual orientation,
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we want everyone
not only to accept me
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but to agree with me
and to accommodate me.
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And there is a
problem with that in that
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there is no give and
take, it's not necessary.
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There's no-- I
don't have to change,
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I'm just the way
I'm, Mr. Rogers loving me,
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the neighborhood loving me.
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I'm just the way I am so,
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if you want me
to be in your world
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then the world you have
to change to be like me.
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And you've given me an idea--
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That's
dangerous. That's dangerous.
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They're people watching
who don't even subscribe--
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That's dangerous.
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To religion and yet
believe in religious liberty,
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you'll have to suspend
your thoughts for a minute.
00:10:05.85\00:10:08.39
But within the church I
think a big part of the loss
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is we are not taking
about, you say change.
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We are not talking
about the ultimate change
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of a conversion experience.
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That's been the
passage through the ages,
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since Jesus
endorsed it and of course,
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John the Baptist was
doing it before Jesus,
00:10:26.41\00:10:28.63
and it has an ancient history.
00:10:28.66\00:10:30.46
But the-- and
affect in the Old Testament
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even Paul, sorry Saul, King Saul
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who went bad at the end
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but he was given
a new heart by God.
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His whole thinking was changed.
00:10:38.75\00:10:41.21
And in it for the Christian,
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Baptism is a
representation of a,
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and a totally turn
about in you moral values,
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in your point of
reference in your life
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and your
internalization of a commitment
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to God to the principles
of the kingdom of heaven
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rather than the kingdom
of man and when that's done,
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an awful lot of the things
within the church structure
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and perhaps then by
extension in society
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take care of themselves.
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But you can't just sort
of never ask the question
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or ask for the
commitment that goes with that
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and then think that young people
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just by the mere factor
their replacement generation
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will move in and
run the church like,
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you know, some of the
godly men and women of SDA world
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is to miss the
point of religion.
00:11:26.81\00:11:29.60
And I'm always referring
to it on a political sense
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and come back to those
that don't believe in religion.
00:11:32.69\00:11:34.72
But you know in the
Vietnam War which was not one
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obviously in our
lost will that this mix up
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but they did come
to the realization.
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It wasn't lost will,
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I've ever heard that
one before I love that.
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Vietnam War was not lost will.
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Well, I remember the
helicopters leaving the--
00:11:50.70\00:11:53.03
Yes, yes.
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What I mean you can
retreat in good order,
00:11:54.99\00:11:56.67
but it was not a good order.
00:11:56.70\00:11:58.53
I remember the helicopters
pushed over the edge of the--
00:11:58.56\00:12:01.23
The carrier.
00:12:01.26\00:12:03.85
But back then I
used the term belatedly
00:12:03.88\00:12:06.62
that really got
to the nitty-gritty.
00:12:06.65\00:12:08.31
They said it was the
battle for hearts and minds,
00:12:08.34\00:12:10.58
that's really what was going on,
00:12:10.61\00:12:13.38
and was lost very badly.
00:12:13.41\00:12:15.35
You're gonna make me
lie and burning villages
00:12:15.38\00:12:17.45
and that doesn't get
the hearts and minds.
00:12:17.48\00:12:21.64
And of course I
believe you really
00:12:21.67\00:12:23.98
hardly awakened win it
by a point of a gun anyhow
00:12:24.01\00:12:26.77
by invading another country.
00:12:26.80\00:12:29.73
Even allowing we
might have done it
00:12:29.76\00:12:31.40
with some high intension
to start with, you know,
00:12:31.43\00:12:34.31
I don't want to get into
the politics of it per say,
00:12:34.34\00:12:36.24
I'm describing what happened.
00:12:36.27\00:12:39.15
But hearts and
minds is where it's about,
00:12:39.18\00:12:41.36
we've got to
gain hearts and minds
00:12:41.39\00:12:43.77
and deeper understanding,
00:12:43.80\00:12:45.15
a spiritual
viewpoint for a new generation
00:12:45.18\00:12:47.72
and then rally
them to the cause,
00:12:47.75\00:12:50.66
have them speak out,
enact in practical voice
00:12:50.69\00:12:54.52
that show true
religious liberty.
00:12:54.55\00:12:56.77
We are sending them
into a war without training.
00:12:56.80\00:12:59.21
See a lot of--
even within our church
00:12:59.24\00:13:00.99
a lot of it has become
a legal discussion about
00:13:01.02\00:13:03.62
separation of church and state,
00:13:03.65\00:13:05.37
and about winning
this accommodation case
00:13:05.40\00:13:08.84
so that they are
not immaterial things
00:13:08.87\00:13:11.47
but they are not central
to what we really on about.
00:13:11.50\00:13:15.74
They symptomatic on the fringes.
00:13:15.77\00:13:19.50
When I look at our
church and of course,
00:13:19.53\00:13:21.64
I have to talk about our church
00:13:21.67\00:13:22.82
because I don't know that much
about others people's church,
00:13:22.85\00:13:24.27
but I know about my church.
00:13:24.30\00:13:25.72
When I look at our
church and the issues
00:13:25.75\00:13:27.49
is that it is
facing, it seems like
00:13:27.52\00:13:31.34
we are kicking
against the pricks.
00:13:31.37\00:13:32.59
We are-- we are
making battles in wars
00:13:32.62\00:13:36.85
that can't be won unless
we have a certain mindset
00:13:36.88\00:13:39.95
and if we don't have the mindset
00:13:39.98\00:13:41.16
we are going into
battle unprepared, unarmed
00:13:41.19\00:13:44.59
and we're gonna loose not well.
00:13:44.62\00:13:48.13
That's exactly what's
gonna happen with our church--
00:13:48.16\00:13:49.21
You like that?
00:13:49.24\00:13:50.27
I love that, I'm gonna use that,
00:13:50.30\00:13:51.99
I'm gonna write a book
about that, how to lose badly.
00:13:52.02\00:13:54.92
I like that good, okay, good.
00:13:54.95\00:13:57.11
Well, you know, I
was gonna give an example
00:13:57.14\00:14:00.87
but it's probably not the
best but at least Dunkirk.
00:14:00.90\00:14:03.20
They saved the
British army, got them across,
00:14:03.23\00:14:05.49
they lost with some dignity.
00:14:05.52\00:14:07.85
They lost well.
00:14:07.88\00:14:09.91
That's what I was talking about.
00:14:09.94\00:14:11.10
We will be back
after a short break
00:14:11.13\00:14:12.76
to continue this discussion.
00:14:12.79\00:14:14.08
Please stay with us.
00:14:14.11\00:14:15.16
I think you'll
find it interesting.
00:14:15.19\00:14:16.70