Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Charles Mills
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000269A
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00:16 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:18 This is a program bringing you discussion, news, updates 00:21 and analysis of religious liberty 00:23 in the United States and around the world. 00:26 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine 00:29 and my guest on the program is Charles Mills. 00:33 As we were just joking a producer 00:35 of TV programs on occasion but for Liberty Magazine 00:39 you are the co-host of our radio program. 00:42 And welcome to this program. Thank you. 00:43 Thank you very much. 00:45 I want to talk a little bit of at your background. 00:47 And I title this PK in ME and few people in this studio-- 00:53 Might want to explain that one, yes. 00:54 Probably for that. 00:56 In our church there's lot of joking 00:58 about PK as Preacher's Kids. 00:59 Preacher's Kids, yes. 01:00 You and I are both in that character, 01:02 usually PK is known for being trouble makers in high school 01:07 and running the gaunt look to becoming a pastor 01:10 themselves later often but embarrassing themselves 01:13 and many other people on the way. 01:15 You haven't done that-- Thank you. 01:17 And the ME is the Middle East. Middle East. 01:19 Because I know a little bit about your life story 01:22 and you are the child of missionary parents. 01:24 Yes. 01:26 Some amazing stories 01:28 but the Middle East is where I want to end up 01:30 but even when you were younger, 01:32 what was one of your earliest memories? 01:34 You told me yesterday and I thought 01:35 this is an amazing story. 01:37 I probably can safely say that I'm the only person 01:40 possibly in our viewing audiences 01:42 and in the studio for sure, 01:44 who had Douglas McArthur blow his house up. 01:48 This actually happened we were living in-- 01:50 If Douglas McArthur had have his way 01:52 to blowing everyone house up. 01:53 Everyone's house up, yeah. 01:54 And everyone that dropped the atomic bomb on-- 01:55 Exactly, luckily it was the smaller bomb on this one. 01:59 But I was born in Korea, 02:01 and so Korea right before the Korean War 02:03 and we were evacuated very exciting story, 02:06 and my mom and my brothers 02:07 and I were put on a fertilizer ship 02:09 undercover of circling American airplanes 02:13 sent to Japan for safety 02:14 This was while the North Koreans-- 02:16 North Koreans were on-- Danish invaded. 02:18 We could hear, they could hear the gunshots 02:20 on the other side of Seoul 02:21 as we were leaving the other side of Seoul, 02:23 so that's how close they were. 02:25 But Douglas McArthur did not want 02:28 any of the better houses in Seoul 02:32 to be falling into enemy hands 02:34 and our houses-- those simple, very simple 02:36 in the compound there at Seoul. 02:39 He ordered them blown up so they-- Americans went in 02:42 and blew up everybody's house and so my house was blown up. 02:44 My dad has a picture of the shell 02:46 that blew it up and the house in-- 02:48 so anyway kind of, kind of a unique thing to say 02:50 that McArthur blew the house. 02:52 They blew your house up. 02:53 But anyway, what you're looking for here 02:55 is my time in the Middle East 02:57 and that happened in 1966 to 1970. 03:02 I took two years of high school 03:04 there in Home Study International 03:06 and one year Middle East College 03:08 now Middle East University. 03:10 And it was a unique experience to live in a country 03:14 where you, I was the religious minority, 03:19 Seventh-day Adventist Christian there 03:22 you could not get further away 03:24 than that from a lot of, a lot of the religion there. 03:28 And the experience taught me something 03:30 that I think is very, very important. 03:31 Number one, not everyone is a militant, not everyone. 03:38 Most people aren't. 03:41 When we would have wars and rumors of wars over there, 03:43 I realized this was not the grocer, 03:45 this was not the guy that worked in the photo shop 03:47 where I went, this was not the person it did the lawns 03:49 and not came and cleaned the office, 03:51 this is not my neighbor, this is not the doctor 03:54 that worked on worked in people down the road. 03:56 These were people-- excuse me, 03:58 these were people who were very, very different 04:01 from most of the people in the Middle East. 04:04 I learn that this is very different. 04:07 Number two, that a lot of the people 04:10 who were militants were not really living 04:14 the full belief of the religion. 04:18 That was important for me to learn. 04:19 So that when something happened 04:21 and we were under attack or when we were asked to leave 04:24 I could identify what was causing the problem. 04:28 I didn't turn against everybody that I knew, 04:31 I didn't turn against the instructors 04:32 at Middle East College, 04:33 I didn't the aerobic instructors, 04:35 I did not turn against the service drivers, 04:38 I did not turn against the people 04:40 I see walking the sidewalks. 04:41 There was something else, something else 04:44 that was driving the violence, driving the intolerance 04:48 and it was not the normal 04:50 everyday people that I love, I still do. 04:52 You know this was the first modern round of civil war 04:55 and I read that you were therefore, 04:58 so what really did drive them? 05:00 What-- where did it come from? 05:04 I'm positive one of my reasons that I gave in another program 05:07 is that this was the postcolonial period 05:10 and hadn't yet sorted that 05:11 but as far as the religion goes, 05:13 what this minority what started them? 05:16 Where did they come from? 05:17 Well, that happened after I left. 05:18 We're talking about the 60 war when I was there, 05:20 but after I left the huge civil war 05:22 that rocked Lebanon, 05:23 but the seeds of it were brewing 05:25 they were planted at that time 05:27 and it just comes down to exactly 05:28 what you're saying before on another program. 05:32 You're different from I am, we only have so much resources, 05:36 I'm right and you are wrong 05:37 and I'm going to make sure that I survive 05:40 and that my belief systems survives 05:43 and to do that I'm gonna take you out. 05:46 That's exactly what is going on. 05:48 But again even that was the small minority of people. 05:51 We have wars fought around the world 05:56 not Nazism, China, look at all these great battles, 06:02 these great genocides of the past 06:07 were operated by small groups of people 06:09 who were able to pull the war over 06:11 a large group of people IS. 06:13 Well, you know I've studied 06:15 this sort of phenomenon in history 06:17 and I've read different figures 06:21 but I don't remember which one made the most sense, 06:24 just plucking a number out of thin air, 06:25 I don't believe it needs more than about 06:28 five to eight percent of the population 06:31 to create a revolution. 06:32 But you have to realize 06:33 when it comes to our Muslim brothers and sisters 06:35 five, eight percent is a lot of people, 06:37 it's a lot of people enough that they can do things 06:41 and they can cause things 06:42 and they can do horrible damage. 06:44 Of course a lot of people but you don't, you know-- 06:48 lets get real we're filming this in the United States 06:51 and you know I studied history here 06:52 and I love US history 06:54 I don't believe quite all of it. 06:57 That sounds anti-American I don't believe-- 07:00 The interpret. 07:01 You don't believe the interpretation of all of it 07:03 I don't believe anything I read in any history of it, 07:05 because history is always more complex 07:08 and less one dimensional 07:10 then the great school of history books. 07:12 And one of the myths that I think 07:14 the history books not so inadvertently 07:17 but in an effort to make a nice narrative the myth they create 07:21 is that the whole the colonies rose up against the British, 07:25 this is not true. 07:28 And it's obvious even in president Adams era, 07:33 he had the alien and sedation acts 07:35 because he couldn't rely on the loyalty 07:36 of the entire New England area 07:38 they are still loyal to England. 07:39 It was a small minority of people 07:42 that were thoroughly motivated, precipitated the event 07:47 and then polarize the situation 07:49 to bring the others along with them. 07:51 And this is not the damn American history 07:52 because this happens everywhere. 07:54 Yes, yes. But I'm just saying-- 07:55 When Paul Revere, where Paul Revere is right 07:58 the British are coming a lot of you went good. 08:00 Welcome, yeah, I'm glad they're coming. 08:03 Thank you it's been so long, good to see you. 08:06 A lot of people said that. 08:07 And I have no problem 08:09 with America separating from England 08:10 would have happened sooner or later. 08:12 They were conflicts in here at the-- 08:14 but we need to just recognize this 08:17 when we're talking about religious liberty 08:19 and religious up welling 08:21 and IS the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria. 08:27 This is a very small group but incredibly highly motivated 08:32 they have sympathies that are in a broad's way 08:35 of their own Sunni minority in Iraq. 08:38 But by no means that I think that there is-- 08:40 I'm not so sure they are even up to that 08:42 five or eight percent of the population 08:44 but they're bringing down the whole country. 08:48 But the question is how do you stop that 08:50 knowing that that's how human beings work 08:52 and when we do with religious liberty 08:54 and religious fraternity and live and let live 08:58 and you know, all of the very ends 09:00 that come under healthy religious liberty concept? 09:03 How do we get back to that 09:04 from where we are now in those areas? 09:05 I've asked you this question before and I love-- 09:08 I've asked you a question and you ask me. 09:09 I know but I want to make sure we have this, 09:11 because a lot of people may be thinking, 09:13 why is this possible? 09:15 Five percent of billions of people are the bad guys, 09:19 95% of billions of people are the good guys 09:22 and the 5% controls the 95%, how is that possible? 09:26 Well, they don't really control it 09:27 but they catalyze the actions and most people follow, 09:33 is not that many peoples that'll lead us 09:35 once a groundswell starts 09:37 people throw their loyalties and obviously 09:39 but they're not activist they're not initiators. 09:41 Well, either throw your loyalty in a bit shot 09:44 or dragged out of your home and executing-- 09:46 One of the things and once intimidation kicks 09:48 in very few people challenge that 09:51 and this is why I believe the ISIS 09:55 are beheading people and so on. 09:57 They are not numerically superior 10:00 and in spite of what the US says 10:02 about the terrorist and all of those 10:03 which is true in a classic sense. 10:05 But this is a standard phenomenon of an under group 10:08 that don't have a superiority and they exhort-- 10:11 they resort to extreme measures to as force multiplies. 10:14 Yeah, yeah. 10:17 I'm not pro-terrorist in any shape or manner, 10:21 but you know I see Al-Qaeda and these groups 10:25 when they take down a building and do this sort if things, 10:28 that's the sort of thing that revolutionaries have done 10:31 from time a memorial to terrorize the majority. 10:35 If they had an army, they would use the army 10:38 but I think they Rumsheld even developed 10:42 the concept of asymmetrical warfare. 10:46 Yes, we have a big army 10:48 and overwhelming power on one model of force 10:51 but fighting asymmetrical as the American colonist did 10:55 with small groups hiding behind trees, 10:58 which was rude at that time, the British you're men, 11:02 you can't stand out in the open and fight like normal-- 11:04 Yeah, you are not standing there in a row 11:05 so we can shoot you. 11:06 This is cowardly. Yes. 11:07 But that won the day for them. 11:09 So we shouldn't confuse the tactics 11:11 which are in my view all war tactics 11:14 are brutal and satanic, 11:16 killing one human of another. 11:18 I don't think you can excuse it in any form 11:20 this things that create the human necessity for it. 11:24 It doesn't make it right. Yeah. 11:26 But we need to look at-- 11:27 you know, what is the underline dynamic 11:29 that we can improve in some way to minimize this 11:34 and to bring religion into a positive role 11:37 instead of being seen as the Christopher Hitchens 11:40 and the others of the world have said 11:42 this is the cause of the world's grief. 11:44 Do you believe that-- well, I'm asking you a question now, 11:46 I'm playing the interviewer here again. 11:49 Do you believe that religion is the answer to the problems 11:54 or is there something else that might include religion? 11:58 Well, I have to believe that religion is the answer. 12:00 Really? 12:02 Otherwise we don't need religion in the world, 12:04 that's the whole reason the man searches for faith beyond him. 12:11 We've reasoned a little beyond the caveman era, 12:15 but to just imagine, you know, this simple subsistence farmers 12:20 and all the rest in there, being prayed on by alliance 12:24 and other things and droughts are killing them off. 12:28 Why are you living? 12:29 You know, is it just to get the next meal? 12:31 Everybody needs to have a more of the sense 12:34 that they're important, that they fit into something 12:37 and so this been a reaching toward the transcendent 12:40 toward God for a long, long time 12:42 and I think human shrivel up and become intelligent 12:48 but still animals if they don't have a religion 12:50 and I think God did reach across the man. 12:53 I don't just think it's nice convenient model, 12:55 I'm believing evidences that God has reached out to us, 12:58 and we have as the social scientist 13:01 have said recently in Time and Newsweek in big studies, 13:04 we have a God shape void with in us, 13:06 there is something in our psyche that demands 13:09 that we discover God and relate to Him. 13:13 But it's so important that when it gets out of whack, 13:16 since this is dealing with something 13:17 beyond my survival for the moment 13:22 then it's so big that that I would actually, not me 13:25 but, you know, human beings 13:27 will harm somebody else to further that over all go. 13:30 It's heavy stuff. 13:31 I have a question for you when we come back from break. 13:33 Yes, you see like me, the time is getting away so-- 13:36 Please stay with us 13:37 and we gonna get into some heavy stuff, 13:39 pretty soon we'll be discussing the meaning of nothing. 13:41 That's something I wasted 13:42 a lot of time on philosophically 13:44 or do you think as I think 13:46 but you know we're dealing with the philosophical 13:49 base of religious liberty here very important. 13:51 Stay with us. |
Revised 2015-01-22