Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:00:05.78\00:00:07.66
Before the break
with guest Charles Mills
00:00:07.69\00:00:09.86
we were sort of
riffing on about everything
00:00:09.89\00:00:12.20
starting with
really the linchpin idea
00:00:12.23\00:00:15.42
of this program is that
you and I worked together
00:00:15.45\00:00:17.71
on a regular radio program.
00:00:17.74\00:00:19.21
Yes. Yes.
00:00:19.24\00:00:20.37
Used to be one hour long
00:00:20.40\00:00:21.50
and those were the good
old days where we talked--
00:00:21.53\00:00:23.57
It was live.
Forever it was live.
00:00:23.60\00:00:25.39
Yeah. We had call-ins and so on.
00:00:25.42\00:00:27.73
Then I think it went to
half-an-hour for a while,
00:00:27.76\00:00:29.69
now it's a 15 minute
program which is invigorating
00:00:29.72\00:00:33.03
because it goes at
the speed of light.
00:00:33.06\00:00:34.45
Have to be very
focused on a 15 minute program.
00:00:34.48\00:00:36.89
But you know, we've had a long,
00:00:36.92\00:00:38.76
long history of talking together
00:00:38.79\00:00:41.52
and covered many, many topics
00:00:41.55\00:00:43.74
and so we ended
up before the break
00:00:43.77\00:00:46.25
sort of setting a
scene for the world.
00:00:46.28\00:00:48.46
Why is it in such turmoil?
00:00:48.49\00:00:49.66
Why is religion becoming
such a contentious issue?
00:00:49.69\00:00:53.81
Yeah.
00:00:53.84\00:00:54.90
And-- am I on the right track?
00:00:54.93\00:00:56.76
You are. We are
on the right track?
00:00:56.79\00:00:57.84
We are talking about some
of these social and economic
00:00:57.87\00:01:00.79
and historic divisions
from the great powers and so on.
00:01:00.82\00:01:05.03
All of these
things have contributed
00:01:05.06\00:01:06.47
I think to a current crazy miss.
00:01:06.50\00:01:09.89
I don't know if you
heard it or read it but
00:01:09.92\00:01:12.24
there was a comic came out
of the White House the other day
00:01:12.27\00:01:15.07
and trying to be
cool and calm with things
00:01:15.10\00:01:17.30
that according to the Congress
00:01:17.33\00:01:18.44
the White House is
not managing correctly.
00:01:18.47\00:01:20.64
And somebody there
said, well, you know,
00:01:20.67\00:01:23.38
we've always got
our eye on events
00:01:23.41\00:01:26.00
and there's usually
a couple of hotspots
00:01:26.03\00:01:28.69
or things
lighting up on the board.
00:01:28.72\00:01:31.29
But they said at the moment
the whole board's lighting up.
00:01:31.32\00:01:33.64
Yes. Yes.
00:01:33.67\00:01:35.30
And I think that's so
00:01:35.33\00:01:36.74
but it was interesting
that they have that feeling.
00:01:36.77\00:01:40.45
We've
established that it is this
00:01:40.48\00:01:43.80
tremendous stress
that the world is under,
00:01:43.83\00:01:47.43
if people understood what
religious liberty really is,
00:01:47.46\00:01:52.87
this stress would serve
to bring people together
00:01:52.90\00:01:56.80
not tear them apart.
00:01:56.83\00:01:58.40
Yeah. It's just the opposite.
00:01:58.43\00:02:00.20
So we have to know that
00:02:00.23\00:02:01.36
if stress is
tearing the world apart,
00:02:01.39\00:02:03.31
there is a misunderstanding
what religious liberty is.
00:02:03.34\00:02:05.70
And another thing is
happening that I noticed
00:02:05.73\00:02:09.00
and we talked about this
in the radio program as well.
00:02:09.03\00:02:12.21
People are using religious
liberty as a scapegoat.
00:02:12.24\00:02:15.54
They are using it
as a means for war.
00:02:15.57\00:02:17.40
Well, because you
don't agree with me--
00:02:17.43\00:02:19.18
Wanting their liberty.
00:02:19.21\00:02:20.24
It is their
liberty because you--
00:02:20.27\00:02:21.68
because I want my liberty
00:02:21.71\00:02:23.04
and you want to
take my liberty away,
00:02:23.07\00:02:24.51
I'm gonna attack you
00:02:24.54\00:02:25.66
and I'm gonna
go to war with you,
00:02:25.69\00:02:27.45
I'm gonna kill you
because you are a threat to me
00:02:27.48\00:02:30.97
so I'm gonna get you first.
00:02:31.00\00:02:32.07
That's what
happening in the Middle East.
00:02:32.10\00:02:33.27
Well, I agree with you
00:02:33.30\00:02:34.69
but let's really
put you to the stretch.
00:02:34.72\00:02:37.16
Why, how in this
context or what explains
00:02:37.19\00:02:40.64
why the Islamic
state of Iraq and Syria
00:02:40.67\00:02:47.15
is so set on
destroying the Yazidis.
00:02:47.18\00:02:51.15
Well, you have to
help me on that one.
00:02:51.18\00:02:52.40
You know the history, so
this man is a history man.
00:02:52.43\00:02:55.22
He knows history so you tell me.
00:02:55.25\00:02:58.27
Well, on the face of it I
don't think its quite so obvious
00:02:58.30\00:03:01.06
because the Yazidis
are very insular community,
00:03:01.09\00:03:04.55
an ancient
religious group in Iraq
00:03:04.58\00:03:07.82
and I think they are
also through into Iran,
00:03:07.85\00:03:11.68
they're Zoroastrians, you know,
00:03:11.71\00:03:13.90
an ancient religion
that predates Christianity
00:03:13.93\00:03:18.27
and I think in its
origins predates Judaism.
00:03:18.30\00:03:23.06
But they are not very active.
00:03:23.09\00:03:25.13
So on the face of it they
don't present a threat to Islam
00:03:25.16\00:03:30.42
but what's happened
and I think this is that
00:03:30.45\00:03:33.24
what we need to understand
about Islam in this case
00:03:33.27\00:03:35.95
but even
Christianity in other cases,
00:03:35.98\00:03:37.96
it's been
stirred to intolerance,
00:03:37.99\00:03:42.19
it's been stirred to hatred
00:03:42.22\00:03:43.70
and it just reflexly
doesn't want to abide
00:03:43.73\00:03:47.06
any other religion, any
other faith other than its own.
00:03:47.09\00:03:50.86
But there's not
an inherit conflict
00:03:50.89\00:03:52.53
between the Yazidis
and Islam that I can say.
00:03:52.56\00:03:56.05
That's something
we've talked about as well.
00:03:56.08\00:03:58.62
You could have two religions,
00:03:58.65\00:04:00.91
two established
ancient religions
00:04:00.94\00:04:04.29
whose platform is
peace fighting each other.
00:04:04.32\00:04:08.58
Who come at each other
with knives and guns and bombs
00:04:08.61\00:04:12.58
and one of the establishing
foundation doctrines
00:04:12.61\00:04:15.56
of their religion
is peace and tolerance
00:04:15.59\00:04:18.23
and love for their neighbor.
00:04:18.26\00:04:19.93
How is that possible?
00:04:19.96\00:04:21.47
And that opens the
door also to another reason
00:04:21.50\00:04:24.48
why we have
religious intolerance
00:04:24.51\00:04:26.67
and lost religious
freedom around the world.
00:04:26.70\00:04:29.21
People aren't living
the religion they believe.
00:04:29.24\00:04:33.33
They are living something
else. What are they living?
00:04:33.36\00:04:34.79
Well, you've been a good
pupil of mine because what I--
00:04:34.82\00:04:37.37
Absolutely.
00:04:37.40\00:04:38.44
What I come back to
all the time on this
00:04:38.47\00:04:41.30
in fact, for shock I've said it
in religious liberty meetings,
00:04:41.33\00:04:45.37
I've said there's way too
much religion in the world,
00:04:45.40\00:04:48.27
way too much and I believe that
00:04:48.30\00:04:50.27
from point of just a
historian looking at events
00:04:50.30\00:04:53.58
and you can easily make a claim
00:04:53.61\00:04:55.29
as did the late
Christopher Hitchens
00:04:55.32\00:04:57.98
that religion is the
cause of the lot of problems
00:04:58.01\00:04:59.85
if not all of them.
00:04:59.88\00:05:00.92
He was a little
incline to say all of them.
00:05:00.95\00:05:03.57
But religion is at the root
00:05:03.60\00:05:05.13
but isn't good
religion it's bad religion,
00:05:05.16\00:05:09.11
and good religion
is made good by faith,
00:05:09.14\00:05:11.20
personal spirituality.
00:05:11.23\00:05:13.96
And I believe and this
is what you're fishing for.
00:05:13.99\00:05:16.27
There's too few people
that are living their faith
00:05:16.30\00:05:19.74
in a personal, spiritual way.
00:05:19.77\00:05:23.15
And yes, I do believe
that some religions doctrinally
00:05:23.18\00:05:26.38
are little more
incline to lash out
00:05:26.41\00:05:29.56
and punish others
that think differently.
00:05:29.59\00:05:32.12
But even those ones
are made more benign
00:05:32.15\00:05:35.09
if the
individual is more concerned
00:05:35.12\00:05:37.30
with personal spirituality
and involved with their faith
00:05:37.33\00:05:40.45
rather than using it as a
weapon against someone else.
00:05:40.48\00:05:42.69
Yes, yes, absolutely.
00:05:42.72\00:05:44.28
Didn't you tell me the story
once of the Prophet Muhammad
00:05:44.31\00:05:47.19
and dealing with people
who are not of the faith.
00:05:47.22\00:05:50.58
There was something that
happened in Egypt or some place
00:05:50.61\00:05:53.07
you told me a story about
how some people helped him--
00:05:53.10\00:05:57.19
Well, I know the story, I
don't remember telling you.
00:05:57.22\00:05:59.52
Yes, and thus the
people helped him and he says,
00:05:59.55\00:06:01.31
well, we need to be friendly
to these people from now on
00:06:01.34\00:06:04.82
and they're
doing anything but that
00:06:04.85\00:06:06.13
in the Middle
East right now. Yeah.
00:06:06.16\00:06:08.21
Well, the Islam is very
complex and I don't want to--
00:06:08.24\00:06:13.58
we don't get
callers on this program
00:06:13.61\00:06:15.29
but we might get fire bombings.
00:06:15.32\00:06:16.98
Not really. Silly.
00:06:17.01\00:06:19.41
But you know we don't want to
00:06:19.44\00:06:20.68
when we talk
about religious liberty
00:06:20.71\00:06:22.15
gratuitously
attack another faith.
00:06:22.18\00:06:26.31
But that faith is not acting
like it is supposed to be.
00:06:26.34\00:06:29.31
It is better than its acting.
00:06:29.34\00:06:31.73
In many places in
the world at the moment
00:06:31.76\00:06:34.14
Islam needs to
be rebut in my view.
00:06:34.17\00:06:37.75
It's not acting well
00:06:37.78\00:06:40.84
in the interest of
humanity in general
00:06:40.87\00:06:44.30
and it's not
really acting always
00:06:44.33\00:06:46.93
in the interest of
its own state at times,
00:06:46.96\00:06:50.21
but what it is doing and
this is what I'm fishing for
00:06:50.24\00:06:53.57
when you look at
the history of Islam,
00:06:53.60\00:06:56.33
Muhammad personally,
00:06:56.36\00:06:57.99
he had a great
battle to even survive
00:06:58.02\00:07:01.50
and the whole concept began
00:07:01.53\00:07:03.73
with the flight
from Mecca, wasn't it?
00:07:03.76\00:07:08.22
Yeah.
00:07:08.25\00:07:09.29
But you know, he was
between Mecca and Medina
00:07:09.32\00:07:11.29
and at one time he
was fleeing for his life,
00:07:11.32\00:07:13.90
another time he
comes back to conquer them
00:07:13.93\00:07:16.01
and like it or not the warfare
00:07:16.04\00:07:21.35
that
accompanied those early days
00:07:21.38\00:07:23.79
is implanted in the thinking
of how Islam will expand.
00:07:23.82\00:07:28.38
It's written into the
Quran and as I say that I know
00:07:28.41\00:07:32.91
that it was given by the
Angel Gabriel to Muhammad,
00:07:32.94\00:07:36.07
it's a bit
dangerous to suggest that
00:07:36.10\00:07:38.93
it was his views that
were written large there
00:07:38.96\00:07:42.20
but whatever within the
Quran there are many statements
00:07:42.23\00:07:45.41
about the value of Jihad
00:07:45.44\00:07:48.85
and advancing it
by the sword and so on
00:07:48.88\00:07:50.89
and the history extenuates that.
00:07:50.92\00:07:53.59
So it's not very hard
in a country like Iraq
00:07:53.62\00:07:56.52
where there are severe ethnic,
historical and military issues.
00:07:56.55\00:08:03.47
When you have all of
that and then the religion
00:08:03.50\00:08:06.56
sort of encourages people
to do it they get a license.
00:08:06.59\00:08:10.79
It goes wrong very quickly.
00:08:10.82\00:08:12.88
Christianity has got a bad
history too in the Middle Ages
00:08:12.91\00:08:15.70
and the crusades
and the inquisition.
00:08:15.73\00:08:19.30
You know, we
can't really excuse that
00:08:19.33\00:08:21.22
but I think you can more
easily in Christianity say that
00:08:21.25\00:08:24.52
it was an aberration
from its founding principles.
00:08:24.55\00:08:27.69
With Judaism it's a
little bit more difficult
00:08:27.72\00:08:31.07
'cause there's some things
in the Old Testament very--
00:08:31.10\00:08:33.74
Yes if we look at
the Old Testament--
00:08:33.77\00:08:35.44
Very similar to the
Quran. If we-- yeah exactly.
00:08:35.47\00:08:38.87
If we use the Old
Testament as our guide
00:08:38.90\00:08:41.62
of how to deal with people who
do not believe the way we are,
00:08:41.65\00:08:44.74
look at what we
turn into. Right.
00:08:44.77\00:08:47.34
Without Christ what do we have?
00:08:47.37\00:08:49.55
That's right
and so whether its--
00:08:49.58\00:08:51.47
Well, Christ for a
Christian. We got to be careful.
00:08:51.50\00:08:54.64
I'm a Seventh-day
Adventist Christian,
00:08:54.67\00:08:56.24
I believe that Christ
as He said, I'm the way.
00:08:56.27\00:08:59.36
No other name given among
men where by you'll be saved.
00:08:59.39\00:09:02.60
But when you are
talking about religious liberty
00:09:02.63\00:09:04.49
and the dynamic
that protects it,
00:09:04.52\00:09:06.47
I think it's not good
enough to say as I jokingly say,
00:09:06.50\00:09:10.20
religion is the problem.
00:09:10.23\00:09:11.93
We need spiritual
religion where people need to be
00:09:11.96\00:09:15.74
seriously spiritually
involved with their faith,
00:09:15.77\00:09:18.59
then we need the
allowance of other human beings
00:09:18.62\00:09:22.03
to find their way to
God through their system
00:09:22.06\00:09:25.37
and we need to denature
00:09:25.40\00:09:26.96
this violent
tendency in all religions.
00:09:26.99\00:09:29.07
And part of it is to accept
it. It's embedded in Islam.
00:09:29.10\00:09:33.22
It's embedded to a
lesser degree I think,
00:09:33.25\00:09:35.33
but that arguable it's embedded
in the Old Testament, Judaism.
00:09:35.36\00:09:39.50
It's historically explainable
00:09:39.53\00:09:42.63
but it's there if
you want to pluck it out.
00:09:42.66\00:09:44.32
Hard to get in Christianity
but easy for Christians
00:09:44.35\00:09:48.09
who think in violent ways
and convenience to get into it.
00:09:48.12\00:09:53.61
But one way or another, we
need to work for all faiths
00:09:53.64\00:09:58.13
to work together not to
accept the other as truth.
00:09:58.16\00:10:01.32
I'm never going
to accept the Quran
00:10:01.35\00:10:03.31
or the Book of
Mormon as God's word.
00:10:03.34\00:10:06.33
No, I accept the Bible.
00:10:06.36\00:10:08.59
But I still should
guarantee there's other people
00:10:08.62\00:10:11.23
the right to believe
that and this has been said
00:10:11.26\00:10:13.07
be ready to die to defend their
right to think differently.
00:10:13.10\00:10:17.50
That is so
important to each one of us
00:10:17.53\00:10:19.48
that we come to a realization
that religious liberty
00:10:19.51\00:10:25.29
is our freedom to love
God, to do what we feel is right
00:10:25.32\00:10:31.97
and then we share
that type of feeling,
00:10:32.00\00:10:35.28
that type of
realization with the world.
00:10:35.31\00:10:38.12
Until we do that we will
not have religious liberty.
00:10:38.15\00:10:41.39
Until we do that none
of us will ever be free.
00:10:41.42\00:10:46.94
I remember hearing
a song on the radio
00:10:46.97\00:10:49.77
with the words
turn your radio on.
00:10:49.80\00:10:53.95
There is television
today as any 3ABN viewer knows
00:10:53.98\00:10:57.20
but it's been a
privilege of mine
00:10:57.23\00:10:59.02
to work on radio as
well for a long time
00:10:59.05\00:11:01.56
and with Charles Mills the guest
00:11:01.59\00:11:04.00
and at first we
were talking for an hour.
00:11:04.03\00:11:06.14
When you talk for
an hour on a topic
00:11:06.17\00:11:07.82
you better know what
you are talking about.
00:11:07.85\00:11:09.96
By the end of the time you
know the topic pretty well.
00:11:09.99\00:11:13.77
There's a lot to
share and talk can do it
00:11:13.80\00:11:16.81
as the truck drivers and
many people driving to work
00:11:16.84\00:11:20.07
all across the country
now they need to hear things
00:11:20.10\00:11:24.05
and to have a
social interaction.
00:11:24.08\00:11:26.04
Radio does it.
00:11:26.07\00:11:27.39
It reminds me a
little bit of God's spirit
00:11:27.42\00:11:29.36
reaching out to our minds.
00:11:29.39\00:11:31.28
I've noticed
many public speakers
00:11:31.31\00:11:33.06
as they are talking
00:11:33.09\00:11:34.35
appeared to be also
having an inside conversation.
00:11:34.38\00:11:38.05
Radio has done that
and I believe that we use--
00:11:38.08\00:11:42.63
need to use all the mediums
radio, television, print.
00:11:42.66\00:11:47.68
I also was an editor of books
as well as Liberty Magazine.
00:11:47.71\00:11:52.78
We need to use
all of these devices
00:11:52.81\00:11:55.12
to communicate moral truths
00:11:55.15\00:11:58.57
and in this case
religious liberty
00:11:58.60\00:12:01.11
'cause at the end of the
day the gospel of liberty
00:12:01.14\00:12:05.29
as Paul put it is preeminent.
00:12:05.32\00:12:08.13
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:08.16\00:12:12.74