Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Wintley Phipps
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000267A
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00:16 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:18 This is the program that brings you up-to-date 00:20 news, views, discussion, 00:22 insights on religious liberty events 00:25 in the United States and around the world. 00:27 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine 00:31 and my guest on the program is Wintley Phipps 00:33 and I'll say it one last time 00:35 we've been a few programs "The Voice." 00:36 Oh, thank you very much. 00:38 Because I'm hoping a little later 00:39 we can hear a song from you. 00:42 Absolutely. 00:43 I want to talk to you about religious liberty 00:46 and where we're going, perhaps, 00:48 as Seventh-day Adventist Christians 00:50 where we're taking this. 00:51 And I really need to start on something 00:53 that might seem real diversion 00:56 but lately I have revisited via YouTube 00:59 many of the debates that the late Christopher Hitchens 01:02 had with mostly Christians 01:05 but sometimes Muslims and another religionists. 01:07 Yes. 01:08 And he wasn't about atheist, secularist, humanist 01:12 and as he said Trotskyist. 01:14 You know he used that for a special effect 01:17 but he was a very articulate journalist 01:20 and war correspondent among other things. 01:23 But a very articulate opponent for these people 01:27 and I remember once he debated Tony Blair on this issue. 01:30 Right, right. 01:31 And Tony Blair did fairly well. 01:32 Yes. 01:33 But generally he demolished 01:36 and his argument usually was against 01:40 what Christians have done around the world 01:42 and through history. 01:43 And they had no answer for that. 01:45 Yeah. 01:46 That I have ever so. 01:47 Yeah. 01:48 And I believe indistinct. 01:49 I think I have an answer for that. 01:51 Let's see your answer before I tell you what that-- 01:54 What was the answer to that? 01:56 Well, the answer is that our focuses, 02:00 our primary teaching, 02:03 preaching focus has not been growing Christians 02:09 who resemble, reflect 02:11 and reveal the character of God. 02:14 In other words, 02:15 you cannot do these things to other people 02:19 if you're focused, 02:20 your primary focus is reflecting, 02:23 resembling and revealing the character of God. 02:26 And but the truth of the matter is most Christian churches 02:32 have no teaching focus. 02:35 We don't have studies on it. 02:37 We don't have books written on it. 02:40 We do not see the necessity of reflecting God's character. 02:48 And as long as that is not the central focus of Christians 02:53 you're going to have them picking up rifles, 02:56 you even have them using and resorting to violence 03:01 and doing things in the name of God 03:04 that have nothing to do with the character of God. 03:08 And so that's-- that's what I believe. 03:10 And as you say that 03:11 it reminds me my memory is failing, 03:13 I don't know who said 03:14 but the best evidence for Christ is 03:17 a loving and lovable Christians. 03:19 You're memory fails you are mad. 03:21 Well, I don't who told. That's Ellen White. 03:22 Oh, okay. 03:24 Well, no but I know, yes. Yeah. 03:26 Now that you've remind, public memory meltdown. 03:31 Yeah. 03:32 But as I remember all the debates 03:35 with Christopher Hitchens 03:37 he wasn't getting that very much 03:39 but he could look at history 03:40 even those that were argue against him 03:43 they were trying to give him rationale arguments 03:46 for the very existence of God. 03:47 Yeah. 03:48 And it is true the Bible says that 03:50 "He that comes to God must first believe that he is." 03:52 Right. 03:53 But that's not particularly logical. 03:55 I think you believe that He is 03:57 because you have a heart yearning. 03:59 Right. 04:00 And something emotionally draws you. 04:01 Right. 04:02 And all of the debates that he have 04:03 the one that I thought curiously 04:06 went the best was with Al Sharpton. 04:07 Oh, okay. 04:08 Because he started to get into this thing 04:11 what Christ meant for him. 04:13 What was going on his life 04:15 and who can say that that's not true? 04:17 Yes, yes. 04:18 And for the peers genuine will have 04:21 an effective result with the other person 04:23 even sometimes against their will. 04:25 Not those very tragic Christopher Hitchens 04:28 in his last days dieing of cancer 04:30 he never wavered in his resolved disbelief. 04:33 Right. 04:34 Well, you know when you think about it, 04:37 it is one of the great conundrums 04:40 and one of the great reasons 04:45 that people give for not accepting Christianity. 04:50 Because when you look through our history 04:53 and you look at how it has been misused and abused. 04:56 I will give an example. 04:59 One of the greatest miracles of modern times 05:05 is how African American people can be Christians. 05:11 Yes. 05:12 It is one of the greatest miracles 05:15 of faith in all of history. 05:19 How do you embrace? 05:21 The religion of the impresser. 05:22 The faith of one who has beaten you and changed you, 05:28 how do you embrace the faith of one who has 05:31 a Bible in one hand 05:34 and your whip or your chains in the other? 05:37 Well, I won't give away any secrets 05:39 but I have got to tell you a story 05:40 that I think it tells you before. 05:42 I was at a well-known Bible college 05:45 that you know very well. 05:46 Okay. Of attending. 05:47 Yeah, yeah. 05:48 And I had to say something upfront 05:51 and I went around the back of the church 05:52 which was in the round and here behind 05:57 where we were gathered to go up 05:58 there probably 20-25 young pastors 06:01 they were really going at on something 06:03 and since I came around they shut up. 06:05 Okay. 06:06 And I said what you're talking about? 06:08 You know, as I was gonna say anything 06:09 and one them eventually says why don't we ask him? 06:13 And he says they we're debating with African Americans 06:19 should reject Christianity 06:20 as the religion of the oppressor 06:22 and that Islam was a more amenable religion for them. 06:25 And my idea was from history 06:26 I said well it was Arabs slave traders 06:29 that were the first link of the whole thing, 06:30 so I said its not really a simpler thing 06:35 is that guy that responded to me or asked me 06:38 he says yes that's what I'm telling them. 06:39 But what got me was, this such a vigorous debate 06:43 the polarizing debate among Christian 06:46 and ministers over this point 06:49 and it is a miracle of God's grace 06:51 as a group yes, even during slavery 06:55 so many of the Africans slaves did adopt Christianity. 07:00 Although I know enough history to know that 07:01 it was often a veneer over 07:03 to disguise their continuing religious activities. 07:08 Well, let me yeah, I was gonna say 07:09 and let me tell you something about that though 07:13 you remember when the children of Israel 07:16 were taken into Egypt as-- 07:18 Thinking about go down those. 07:20 Yeah, you real good I'm also there. 07:21 No, but actually I'm thinking of 07:22 when they were taking at the Babylon as slaves 07:24 they said by the rivers of Babylon 07:26 we sat we wept when we remembered Zion. 07:28 How can we sing those? 07:29 Yeah, how can we sing those? 07:30 And then God showed me how amazing 07:32 the African slave was in America. 07:35 He didn't hang his heart. 07:37 He continued to sing through his bondage. 07:39 But what did he sing about? 07:42 He sang about the faith of Jesus. 07:47 Now how could he do that 07:50 when he was being taught this by slave master 07:54 and here's what I believe. 07:55 I believe that slave surpassed all of that 08:00 and identified with a Christ who was also chained. 08:06 Who was also born in the manger-- 08:08 Yes I think so. 08:10 And we know today in fact, 08:11 I believe it's almost impossible 08:15 to have a true conversion without a crisis in your life 08:20 you have to reach the bottom in somewhere another 08:23 to want God 08:25 and those people then obviously in their life 08:27 had been destroyed. 08:28 They've been wrenched away from home and hut 08:31 and all of that was familiar to them 08:32 different culture across the nation 08:34 and never we gonna get back. 08:35 Right. 08:36 So you're on your last resort and here you see a model 08:40 as you say that they could identify with 08:42 but you talk about how could they sing about it? 08:44 Yeah. 08:45 You're ready to sing I'd love to hear a song 08:46 that would link with us. 08:47 I know you have a few possibilities. 08:50 Yes, well, this song really is saying 08:54 we ought to give thanks to God. 08:56 Even one of my favorite quotes is that 08:59 God gave me that He said 09:00 it is in the quit crucible 09:02 of our personal private sufferings 09:05 that our noblest dreams are born. 09:07 Very well put. 09:08 And God's greatest gifts are given 09:10 and often God gives those gifts in compensation 09:14 for what we've been through. 09:15 So we sing the way we sing. 09:18 We give God the glory the way we give God the glory. 09:20 A tribute. 09:21 Inspired of what has happened. 09:23 Listen to the message. 09:54 How can I say thanks 10:01 For the things You have done for me? 10:08 Things so undeserved, 10:15 Yet you gave to prove your love for me 10:22 The voices of a million angels 10:28 Could not express my gratitude 10:34 All that I am and ever hope to be 10:43 I owe it all to thee 10:50 To God be the glory 10:58 To God be the glory 11:05 To God be the glory 11:11 For the things He has done 11:19 With His blood 11:22 He has saved me 11:25 With His power He has raised me 11:33 To God be the glory 11:40 For the things He has done 11:46 Just let me live my life, 11:53 And let it pleasing, Lord to Thee 12:01 And should I gain Gain any praise 12:07 Let it go to Calvary 12:15 Calvary 12:20 Oh, with His blood 12:26 He has saved me With His power 12:33 He has raised me 12:37 To God be the glory 12:44 For the things He has done 12:51 To God be the glory 12:59 For the things For the things 13:05 For all the things He has done 13:27 To God be the glory. To God be the glory. 13:29 A better theme to have in a program. 13:32 Well I must say 13:33 I think you spoiled this program forever. 13:35 We're gonna have to have music like that 13:37 and where do we get it. 13:38 But we need to take a break now 13:40 we'll be back after short break 13:42 to continue this discussion with Wintley Phipps. |
Revised 2014-12-17