Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:16.85\00:00:18.38
This is the program
that brings you up-to-date
00:00:18.41\00:00:20.52
news, views, discussion,
00:00:20.55\00:00:22.36
insights on
religious liberty events
00:00:22.39\00:00:24.99
in the United States
and around the world.
00:00:25.02\00:00:27.15
My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
00:00:27.18\00:00:30.97
and my guest on the
program is Wintley Phipps
00:00:31.00\00:00:33.52
and I'll say it one last time
00:00:33.55\00:00:35.06
we've been a few
programs "The Voice."
00:00:35.09\00:00:36.58
Oh, thank you very much.
00:00:36.61\00:00:38.03
Because I'm
hoping a little later
00:00:38.06\00:00:39.21
we can hear a song from you.
00:00:39.24\00:00:42.06
Absolutely.
00:00:42.09\00:00:43.96
I want to talk to you
about religious liberty
00:00:43.99\00:00:46.69
and where we're going, perhaps,
00:00:46.72\00:00:48.08
as Seventh-day
Adventist Christians
00:00:48.11\00:00:50.03
where we're taking this.
00:00:50.06\00:00:51.83
And I really need
to start on something
00:00:51.86\00:00:53.81
that might seem real diversion
00:00:53.84\00:00:56.12
but lately I have
revisited via YouTube
00:00:56.15\00:00:59.45
many of the debates that
the late Christopher Hitchens
00:00:59.48\00:01:02.64
had with mostly Christians
00:01:02.67\00:01:05.09
but sometimes Muslims
and another religionists.
00:01:05.12\00:01:07.32
Yes.
00:01:07.35\00:01:08.38
And he wasn't about
atheist, secularist, humanist
00:01:08.41\00:01:12.63
and as he said Trotskyist.
00:01:12.66\00:01:14.80
You know he used
that for a special effect
00:01:14.83\00:01:17.46
but he was a very
articulate journalist
00:01:17.49\00:01:20.06
and war correspondent
among other things.
00:01:20.09\00:01:23.82
But a very articulate
opponent for these people
00:01:23.85\00:01:27.70
and I remember once he debated
Tony Blair on this issue.
00:01:27.73\00:01:30.29
Right, right.
00:01:30.32\00:01:31.36
And Tony Blair did fairly well.
00:01:31.39\00:01:32.57
Yes.
00:01:32.60\00:01:33.64
But generally he demolished
00:01:33.67\00:01:36.78
and his argument
usually was against
00:01:36.81\00:01:40.31
what Christians have
done around the world
00:01:40.34\00:01:42.52
and through history.
00:01:42.55\00:01:43.85
And they had no answer for that.
00:01:43.88\00:01:45.24
Yeah.
00:01:45.27\00:01:46.31
That I have ever so.
00:01:46.34\00:01:47.38
Yeah.
00:01:47.41\00:01:48.79
And I believe indistinct.
00:01:48.82\00:01:49.85
I think I have
an answer for that.
00:01:49.88\00:01:51.87
Let's see your answer
before I tell you what that--
00:01:51.90\00:01:54.76
What was the answer to that?
00:01:54.79\00:01:55.97
Well, the answer
is that our focuses,
00:01:56.00\00:02:00.04
our primary teaching,
00:02:00.07\00:02:03.12
preaching focus has
not been growing Christians
00:02:03.15\00:02:09.50
who resemble, reflect
00:02:09.53\00:02:11.59
and reveal the character of God.
00:02:11.62\00:02:14.26
In other words,
00:02:14.29\00:02:15.32
you cannot do these
things to other people
00:02:15.35\00:02:19.49
if you're focused,
00:02:19.52\00:02:20.72
your primary
focus is reflecting,
00:02:20.75\00:02:23.63
resembling and
revealing the character of God.
00:02:23.66\00:02:26.86
And but the truth of the matter
is most Christian churches
00:02:26.89\00:02:32.17
have no teaching focus.
00:02:32.20\00:02:35.52
We don't have studies on it.
00:02:35.55\00:02:37.78
We don't have
books written on it.
00:02:37.81\00:02:40.63
We do not see the necessity
of reflecting God's character.
00:02:40.66\00:02:48.21
And as long as that is not
the central focus of Christians
00:02:48.24\00:02:53.68
you're going to have
them picking up rifles,
00:02:53.71\00:02:56.88
you even have them using
and resorting to violence
00:02:56.91\00:03:01.17
and doing things
in the name of God
00:03:01.20\00:03:04.96
that have nothing to do
with the character of God.
00:03:04.99\00:03:08.77
And so that's--
that's what I believe.
00:03:08.80\00:03:10.42
And as you say that
00:03:10.45\00:03:11.49
it reminds me my
memory is failing,
00:03:11.52\00:03:13.85
I don't know who said
00:03:13.88\00:03:14.93
but the best
evidence for Christ is
00:03:14.96\00:03:17.95
a loving and lovable Christians.
00:03:17.98\00:03:19.56
You're memory fails you are mad.
00:03:19.59\00:03:21.21
Well, I don't who
told. That's Ellen White.
00:03:21.24\00:03:22.52
Oh, okay.
00:03:22.55\00:03:24.04
Well, no but I know, yes. Yeah.
00:03:24.07\00:03:26.26
Now that you've
remind, public memory meltdown.
00:03:26.29\00:03:31.15
Yeah.
00:03:31.18\00:03:32.21
But as I
remember all the debates
00:03:32.24\00:03:35.19
with Christopher Hitchens
00:03:35.22\00:03:37.15
he wasn't getting that very much
00:03:37.18\00:03:39.07
but he could look at history
00:03:39.10\00:03:40.59
even those that
were argue against him
00:03:40.62\00:03:43.40
they were trying to
give him rationale arguments
00:03:43.43\00:03:46.21
for the very existence of God.
00:03:46.24\00:03:47.80
Yeah.
00:03:47.83\00:03:48.96
And it is true
the Bible says that
00:03:48.99\00:03:50.24
"He that comes to God
must first believe that he is."
00:03:50.27\00:03:52.24
Right.
00:03:52.27\00:03:53.30
But that's not
particularly logical.
00:03:53.33\00:03:55.47
I think you believe that He is
00:03:55.50\00:03:57.93
because you have
a heart yearning.
00:03:57.96\00:03:59.01
Right.
00:03:59.04\00:04:00.08
And something
emotionally draws you.
00:04:00.11\00:04:01.22
Right.
00:04:01.25\00:04:02.28
And all of the
debates that he have
00:04:02.31\00:04:03.57
the one that I thought curiously
00:04:03.60\00:04:05.98
went the best
was with Al Sharpton.
00:04:06.01\00:04:07.63
Oh, okay.
00:04:07.66\00:04:08.70
Because he started
to get into this thing
00:04:08.73\00:04:11.66
what Christ meant for him.
00:04:11.69\00:04:13.02
What was going on his life
00:04:13.05\00:04:15.54
and who can say
that that's not true?
00:04:15.57\00:04:17.07
Yes, yes.
00:04:17.10\00:04:18.28
And for the
peers genuine will have
00:04:18.31\00:04:21.28
an effective result
with the other person
00:04:21.31\00:04:23.78
even sometimes
against their will.
00:04:23.81\00:04:25.51
Not those very
tragic Christopher Hitchens
00:04:25.54\00:04:28.36
in his last
days dieing of cancer
00:04:28.39\00:04:30.29
he never wavered in
his resolved disbelief.
00:04:30.32\00:04:33.86
Right.
00:04:33.89\00:04:34.93
Well, you know
when you think about it,
00:04:34.96\00:04:37.35
it is one of
the great conundrums
00:04:37.38\00:04:40.66
and one of the great reasons
00:04:40.69\00:04:45.90
that people give for
not accepting Christianity.
00:04:45.93\00:04:50.76
Because when you
look through our history
00:04:50.79\00:04:53.24
and you look at how it
has been misused and abused.
00:04:53.27\00:04:56.96
I will give an example.
00:04:56.99\00:04:59.13
One of the greatest
miracles of modern times
00:04:59.16\00:05:05.05
is how African American
people can be Christians.
00:05:05.08\00:05:11.22
Yes.
00:05:11.25\00:05:12.30
It is one of the
greatest miracles
00:05:12.33\00:05:15.70
of faith in all of history.
00:05:15.73\00:05:18.98
How do you embrace?
00:05:19.01\00:05:21.41
The religion of the impresser.
00:05:21.44\00:05:22.77
The faith of one who has
beaten you and changed you,
00:05:22.80\00:05:28.82
how do you embrace
the faith of one who has
00:05:28.85\00:05:31.74
a Bible in one hand
00:05:31.77\00:05:33.97
and your whip or
your chains in the other?
00:05:34.00\00:05:37.77
Well, I won't
give away any secrets
00:05:37.80\00:05:39.32
but I have got
to tell you a story
00:05:39.35\00:05:40.62
that I think it
tells you before.
00:05:40.65\00:05:42.21
I was at a
well-known Bible college
00:05:42.24\00:05:45.28
that you know very well.
00:05:45.31\00:05:46.38
Okay. Of attending.
00:05:46.41\00:05:47.44
Yeah, yeah.
00:05:47.47\00:05:48.50
And I had to say
something upfront
00:05:48.53\00:05:51.05
and I went around
the back of the church
00:05:51.08\00:05:52.95
which was in the
round and here behind
00:05:52.98\00:05:57.06
where we were gathered to go up
00:05:57.09\00:05:58.68
there probably
20-25 young pastors
00:05:58.71\00:06:01.85
they were really
going at on something
00:06:01.88\00:06:03.57
and since I came
around they shut up.
00:06:03.60\00:06:05.27
Okay.
00:06:05.30\00:06:06.51
And I said what
you're talking about?
00:06:06.54\00:06:08.37
You know, as I
was gonna say anything
00:06:08.40\00:06:09.96
and one them eventually
says why don't we ask him?
00:06:09.99\00:06:13.02
And he says they we're
debating with African Americans
00:06:13.05\00:06:18.99
should reject Christianity
00:06:19.02\00:06:20.67
as the religion of the oppressor
00:06:20.70\00:06:22.07
and that Islam was a more
amenable religion for them.
00:06:22.10\00:06:25.19
And my idea was from history
00:06:25.22\00:06:26.76
I said well it was
Arabs slave traders
00:06:26.79\00:06:29.03
that were the first
link of the whole thing,
00:06:29.06\00:06:30.95
so I said its not
really a simpler thing
00:06:30.98\00:06:35.15
is that guy that
responded to me or asked me
00:06:35.18\00:06:38.25
he says yes that's
what I'm telling them.
00:06:38.28\00:06:39.87
But what got me was,
this such a vigorous debate
00:06:39.90\00:06:43.93
the polarizing
debate among Christian
00:06:43.96\00:06:46.41
and ministers over this point
00:06:46.44\00:06:49.02
and it is a
miracle of God's grace
00:06:49.05\00:06:51.55
as a group yes,
even during slavery
00:06:51.58\00:06:55.02
so many of the Africans
slaves did adopt Christianity.
00:06:55.05\00:07:00.25
Although I know
enough history to know that
00:07:00.28\00:07:01.89
it was often a veneer over
00:07:01.92\00:07:03.72
to disguise their
continuing religious activities.
00:07:03.75\00:07:08.17
Well, let me
yeah, I was gonna say
00:07:08.20\00:07:09.90
and let me tell you
something about that though
00:07:09.93\00:07:13.81
you remember when
the children of Israel
00:07:13.84\00:07:16.00
were taken into Egypt as--
00:07:16.03\00:07:18.91
Thinking about go down those.
00:07:18.94\00:07:20.17
Yeah, you real
good I'm also there.
00:07:20.20\00:07:21.59
No, but actually I'm thinking of
00:07:21.62\00:07:22.81
when they were taking
at the Babylon as slaves
00:07:22.84\00:07:24.86
they said by the
rivers of Babylon
00:07:24.89\00:07:26.69
we sat we wept
when we remembered Zion.
00:07:26.72\00:07:28.37
How can we sing those?
00:07:28.40\00:07:29.43
Yeah, how can we sing those?
00:07:29.46\00:07:30.67
And then God
showed me how amazing
00:07:30.70\00:07:32.80
the African
slave was in America.
00:07:32.83\00:07:35.48
He didn't hang his heart.
00:07:35.51\00:07:37.09
He continued to
sing through his bondage.
00:07:37.12\00:07:39.63
But what did he sing about?
00:07:39.66\00:07:42.20
He sang about
the faith of Jesus.
00:07:42.23\00:07:47.59
Now how could he do that
00:07:47.62\00:07:50.46
when he was being
taught this by slave master
00:07:50.49\00:07:54.18
and here's what I believe.
00:07:54.21\00:07:55.77
I believe that slave
surpassed all of that
00:07:55.80\00:08:00.68
and identified with a
Christ who was also chained.
00:08:00.71\00:08:06.58
Who was also
born in the manger--
00:08:06.61\00:08:08.91
Yes I think so.
00:08:08.94\00:08:10.15
And we know today in fact,
00:08:10.18\00:08:11.94
I believe it's almost impossible
00:08:11.97\00:08:15.04
to have a true conversion
without a crisis in your life
00:08:15.07\00:08:20.88
you have to reach the
bottom in somewhere another
00:08:20.91\00:08:23.85
to want God
00:08:23.88\00:08:25.21
and those people then
obviously in their life
00:08:25.24\00:08:27.57
had been destroyed.
00:08:27.60\00:08:28.67
They've been wrenched
away from home and hut
00:08:28.70\00:08:31.05
and all of that
was familiar to them
00:08:31.08\00:08:32.87
different
culture across the nation
00:08:32.90\00:08:34.50
and never we gonna get back.
00:08:34.53\00:08:35.73
Right.
00:08:35.76\00:08:36.87
So you're on your last
resort and here you see a model
00:08:36.90\00:08:40.26
as you say that
they could identify with
00:08:40.29\00:08:42.52
but you talk about how
could they sing about it?
00:08:42.55\00:08:43.99
Yeah.
00:08:44.02\00:08:45.05
You're ready to sing
I'd love to hear a song
00:08:45.08\00:08:46.69
that would link with us.
00:08:46.72\00:08:47.75
I know you have a
few possibilities.
00:08:47.78\00:08:50.14
Yes, well, this
song really is saying
00:08:50.17\00:08:54.90
we ought to give thanks to God.
00:08:54.93\00:08:56.86
Even one of my
favorite quotes is that
00:08:56.89\00:08:59.08
God gave me that He said
00:08:59.11\00:09:00.56
it is in the quit crucible
00:09:00.59\00:09:02.49
of our personal
private sufferings
00:09:02.52\00:09:05.17
that our
noblest dreams are born.
00:09:05.20\00:09:07.34
Very well put.
00:09:07.37\00:09:08.42
And God's
greatest gifts are given
00:09:08.45\00:09:10.60
and often God gives
those gifts in compensation
00:09:10.63\00:09:14.55
for what we've been through.
00:09:14.58\00:09:15.96
So we sing the way we sing.
00:09:15.99\00:09:17.99
We give God the glory the
way we give God the glory.
00:09:18.02\00:09:20.48
A tribute.
00:09:20.51\00:09:21.90
Inspired of what has happened.
00:09:21.93\00:09:23.95
Listen to the message.
00:09:23.98\00:09:25.66
How can I say thanks
00:09:54.26\00:10:00.99
For the things
You have done for me?
00:10:01.02\00:10:08.62
Things so undeserved,
00:10:08.65\00:10:15.37
Yet you gave to
prove your love for me
00:10:15.40\00:10:22.62
The voices of a million angels
00:10:22.65\00:10:28.19
Could not express my gratitude
00:10:28.22\00:10:34.85
All that I am
and ever hope to be
00:10:34.88\00:10:40.45
I owe it all to thee
00:10:43.89\00:10:50.21
To God be the glory
00:10:50.24\00:10:58.13
To God be the glory
00:10:58.16\00:11:05.56
To God be the glory
00:11:05.59\00:11:11.45
For the things He has done
00:11:11.48\00:11:18.99
With His blood
00:11:19.02\00:11:22.30
He has saved me
00:11:22.33\00:11:25.93
With His power He has raised me
00:11:25.96\00:11:33.27
To God be the glory
00:11:33.30\00:11:40.11
For the things He has done
00:11:40.14\00:11:46.46
Just let me live my life,
00:11:46.49\00:11:53.96
And let it
pleasing, Lord to Thee
00:11:53.99\00:12:01.11
And should I
gain Gain any praise
00:12:01.14\00:12:07.55
Let it go to Calvary
00:12:07.58\00:12:12.75
Calvary
00:12:15.75\00:12:20.13
Oh, with His blood
00:12:20.16\00:12:26.60
He has saved me With His power
00:12:26.63\00:12:33.22
He has raised me
00:12:33.25\00:12:37.68
To God be the glory
00:12:37.71\00:12:44.64
For the things He has done
00:12:44.67\00:12:51.49
To God be the glory
00:12:51.52\00:12:58.98
For the things For the things
00:12:59.01\00:13:05.36
For all the things He has done
00:13:05.39\00:13:13.36
To God be the
glory. To God be the glory.
00:13:27.61\00:13:29.67
A better theme to
have in a program.
00:13:29.70\00:13:32.01
Well I must say
00:13:32.04\00:13:33.09
I think you spoiled
this program forever.
00:13:33.12\00:13:35.70
We're gonna have to
have music like that
00:13:35.73\00:13:37.40
and where do we get it.
00:13:37.43\00:13:38.86
But we need to take a break now
00:13:38.89\00:13:40.20
we'll be back after short break
00:13:40.23\00:13:41.99
to continue this
discussion with Wintley Phipps.
00:13:42.02\00:13:43.93