Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the
program bringing you news,
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views, discussion and
up-to-date information
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on religious
liberty developments
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in the United
States and around world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and the guest on this
program is Wintley Phipps.
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Good to be with you.
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And he's gonna not forget me
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because I have
called him "The Voice."
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That's all right.
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You know religious
liberty is also something
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you're very concerned about.
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You've been a
pastor for many years
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but for a time you're working
at our world headquarters.
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Yes.
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I think the legislative liaison
for the Religious Liberty.
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Yeah in 1995
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I was voted in Utrecht
as the associate director
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for the public
affairs Religious Liberty
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and my primary responsibility
was really the Congress
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dealing with executive
branch and the UN actually.
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Oh, you did the
UN, too actually.
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Yeah. Now we have two people so.
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So that should satisfy you that.
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It's taken two
people to replace you.
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That's right.
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So that's those where
my primary responsibilities
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and it was very meaningful
and it was a great opportunity
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to represent my church
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in the halls of
Congress and the legislative.
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We had to deal with for example
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there was some legislation
at the time taking place
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dealing with
trust and annuities.
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And if you
remember there was a time
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when they were
going after churches
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and other organizations
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and trying to use an
antitrust legislation
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to get us to pay lots of
money in millions of dollars.
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One of the reasons
was they were saying
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that nonprofits
that were colluding
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or they were coming together
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to set specific
rates for annuities
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and when that happens
that's a breach of antitrust.
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Lot of people don't realize
this side of religious liberty.
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There are lot of legal proposals
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that might not appear to
be about religious liberty
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but can have a huge impact
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on churches and people of faith.
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Absolutely.
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And one that I remember
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I don't remember the legislation
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but there was a
move a few years ago
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to hold churches accountable
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as though they sold a product
to the members that if they.
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Remember that?
Right, yeah, yeah.
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If the member felt
that they've been defrauded
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by the church they can sue them.
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Yeah, that's
right, that's right.
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And consequently you
know there are some people
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who are
applauding the protections
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that this particular
Supreme Court is giving to--
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Neither so
called Hobby Lobby case.
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Yes, yes and giving to
what they call corporations
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or churches because they feel
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that the common
good is more important
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than individual
liberties and individual rights.
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And even as you say that it's
obvious that there's a danger
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to the individual
liberty from that I think.
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Yeah, absolutely and this court
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has made a decision
that corporate rights.
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Yeah, a right really when
it comes to religious believes
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is more important than
the rights of the individual.
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Because what they are
saying is that a corporation
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can be in enforce
their religious believes
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on the rights of
on the individual
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and so its gonna be interesting
to see how that turns out
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because I understand there's
some legislation is being
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proposed now to counteract
the Hobby Lobby issue.
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Well, you know, my take on
it is very similar to yours
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there's others who
argue that that's not so
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but I think there
ignoring the obvious
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the Supreme Court
already in Citizens United said
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that corporations have
the rights of individuals.
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Right.
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And so now its writ
into something that involves
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its written into something
that involves religious liberty
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but if you think about it
even for a moment you realize
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that it's the
owners of this business
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that are being given the right
to project their personal view
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against
activities of their employees
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and others in the community
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so its beyond me
and my religionist
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now and me and my
religion will tell you
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that you must act
as I do and that to me
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that's not religious liberty.
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Well again there are some people
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who really believe that
kind of ruling protects you
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as an Adventist when
you build a business.
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Well it may.
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Yeah when you have a corporation
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and that
corporation now is protected
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because it does not have
to go against your conscience.
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So it really depends on
whose side you're gonna support.
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But they've got
very short memories
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when its not long ago in fact,
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barely before I
arrived in the US
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when businesses used to have
signs out-front no so and so.
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Yes.
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It was Blacks and Jews. Yeah.
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Bold and it was
all under force of law.
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And it was and
their religious believes.
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It was based on
religious believes.
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And so there are some
people who don't think that
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that can happen again
but if you know human nature
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and you know the
fallenness of our human nature.
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Well, they say that
history doesn't repeat itself.
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It does it just
doesn't repeat identically.
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But the patterns of
history and of human behavior
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and thought roll
around and around and around.
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But they also say that they
also say that past is prologue.
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A quote by
Shakespeare. Absolutely.
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You know that you'll
see you can almost predict
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the behavior of the future
by the behavior of the past.
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And this almost begs a counter
I think it was Yogi Berra says
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it's very hard
to make predictions
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especially about the future.
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But it's a very
serious case. Absolutely.
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And it's going to have
its going to reverberate
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and here's why it
can be very serious case,
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97% of American
corporations are family held.
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So that means that
there is almost no place
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where you can go to work
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where if the owners
of those corporations
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wanted to live by
certain religious believes
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that they can impose those
believes on employees as well.
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And so it can have
a very serious effect.
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Yes, its always
unintended consequences
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and maybe I shouldn't
defend the Supreme Court
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because I haven't felt they
have been the worst offenders
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on some of these
recent religious liberty cases
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but I believe to this day that
on the Lawrence V. Kansas case
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that resulted in the
whole move toward guy marriages
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and guy rights and so on.
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I don't think they
really were particularly
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intending to enable
that they were at the time
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fixated on the right of privacy.
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And I think they were right
we don't want the government
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or anyone else
coming into our home
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and telling us
what to do and so on.
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But in so doing upholding that
they just opened the floodgates
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to the whole guy
rights, guy marriages and so on.
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And I have views
on that but I think
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just as a matter of description
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it's obvious that one thing
came from the other and yeah
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what didn't seem to be
connected at that time.
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Well, one of the things I
often share is that democracy
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is a marvelous
wonderful form of government
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but it has one fatal flaw.
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People. Yes.
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And the fatal flaw is
that the will of the majority
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no matter how slim
becomes the law of the land
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and in many cases trumps.
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What you and I may
perceive as the will of God.
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Yeah.
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And so you
sometimes in a quandary
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you cannot have a true democracy
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and celebrate that
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and at the same time expect that
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when your religious
view is not in the majority
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that somehow it
will be impose another's.
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Well, you're getting
close to and now we're back to
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what you use to spend
a lot of time debating.
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This great misunderstanding
about democracy is
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it was written
for the United States
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but if you go to
the founding fathers
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its very obvious
what they thought.
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They were very
fearful of majoritarian rule.
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They literally feared it.
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And most of arc
the now seemingly
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arching elements of
the balance of powers
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and all of the
constitution itself
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were really
designed to dampen down
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and make more defuse
the will of the majority.
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Remember the United States--
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Check on the
will of the majority.
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Well, it's more
the United States
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representative system
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which is a lot of
different from a majoritarian,
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it's not a majoritarian
democracy it's becoming
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and when it becomes
bad things will follow.
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The French
revolutions showed us that.
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Sometime that was
ruled by mobocracy
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about the people,
the will of the people.
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The will of the
people needs to be
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expressed in the government
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but not in the
majoritarian sense
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because turning
back to spiritual things
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you read the Bible
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and the majority
are always wrong.
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The majority is
not on God's side.
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But we-- I think inherently,
intrinsically we are conflicted
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because we do want
to standup and share
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when our religious believes
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are advancing in the
society and but at the same time
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when that we do also
want to applaud the democracy
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but when the
democracy doesn't see it the way
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we believe, you know, I
think of so many instances
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and say Ellen White's
writings were you know
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she was going against
the will of the majority
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and the will of the democracy.
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And within the church.
And in the society as well.
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Well, and our church
also should not be run
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as by majoritarian principles.
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Yeah, okay.
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No, I think that it can
easily be shown from history
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and particularly
shown from the record
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of the framers
of the constitution
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and great grand old
man of American governance.
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They did not like the majority.
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So how do you-- They feared it.
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So how do you reconcile
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religious
freedom of the majority
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and the religious
needs of the minority
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because there is I'm
saying we're conflicted--
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Well, that's why there's
the bill of rights for example.
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Which is to trump what
the majority think it anytime.
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These things are guaranteed
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regardless of the
sentiment of the time.
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And you have to
have checks. Yeah.
00:11:44.41\00:11:45.75
And I say as long the
government representatives
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or the government well
they have representatives
00:11:49.68\00:11:53.65
are listening to
their constituency
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but we all know
that a better statements
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is made of someone that's
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that has the best
of the people in mind
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but won't always
jump when they say jump.
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Like you were talking
about Winston Churchill.
00:12:05.89\00:12:07.79
Winston Churchill didn't do
what the people did over to.
00:12:07.82\00:12:10.30
He led the people
it's the difference
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and they should
lead on good principles.
00:12:12.91\00:12:15.42
Obviously if they're dictators
00:12:15.45\00:12:17.72
and a
misanthropes like Adolf Hitler
00:12:17.75\00:12:20.44
then you got serious trouble.
00:12:20.47\00:12:22.11
So what do you do in
from your own perspective?
00:12:22.14\00:12:24.26
What do you do when the majority
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can then change
even the bill of rights
00:12:29.52\00:12:32.31
or change the constitution?
00:12:32.34\00:12:34.03
In other words
you have a situation--
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You have a dangerous situation
and you quoted Ellen White
00:12:35.25\00:12:38.16
who wrote a lot of things
to our church in its early days
00:12:38.19\00:12:42.49
and feel she was moved of
God and some of the statements
00:12:42.52\00:12:46.17
and she looked ahead
in the future to a time
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she said when the United States
Sebastian of civil liberties
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and protectors of the
rights of the minority
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that it would actually--
00:12:55.74\00:12:57.21
Speak like a dragon.
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Well, beyond that I'm trying
to think of the word she used,
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it would effectively repudiate
00:13:00.30\00:13:03.70
every principle
of the constitution.
00:13:03.73\00:13:04.92
Of the constitution, yeah, yeah.
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And I in some ways I see
that coming down the point.
00:13:06.25\00:13:09.17
It hasn't happened yet but
this majoritarian assumptions,
00:13:09.20\00:13:14.24
extraordinary
reactions in emergencies--
00:13:14.27\00:13:16.93
Yes.
00:13:16.96\00:13:17.99
One of the
framers says, you know,
00:13:18.02\00:13:19.93
who would give
away essential liberties
00:13:19.96\00:13:21.60
in the time of
crisis for security deserves
00:13:21.63\00:13:23.81
neither the
liberty nor security.
00:13:23.84\00:13:25.18
Freedom nor
security. Ben Franco.
00:13:25.21\00:13:26.57
I think I thought
it was Franco but I--
00:13:26.60\00:13:28.20
I usually don't say what I'm
not sure and that's very true.
00:13:28.23\00:13:31.76
Yeah, yeah.
00:13:31.79\00:13:32.93
It's really in an
emergency that you show that
00:13:32.96\00:13:35.43
those principles are important
same with religious liberties.
00:13:35.46\00:13:37.86
Its easy, to give
religious freedom to a minority
00:13:37.89\00:13:41.25
when there is no stress.
00:13:41.28\00:13:42.66
It's when it's
dangerous and there's, you know,
00:13:42.69\00:13:45.79
religious people
maybe attacking each other
00:13:45.82\00:13:47.83
that you still stick with it.
00:13:47.86\00:13:49.04
As the US has done
since 9/11 I must say publicly
00:13:49.07\00:13:53.01
we've not wave it from
saying we protect the minorities
00:13:53.04\00:13:55.62
and we're
divergent religious opinion.
00:13:55.65\00:13:58.69
I have spoken too much
and broke up my own rule.
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But coming up to our first break
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but I just ask the
people to stay with us
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we'll be back
shortly and we'll continue
00:14:05.55\00:14:07.60
this discussion
with Wintley Phipps.
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And I have a reason for the--
my title given to this program.
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Because I want to
deal with young people.
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It's a important part of
religious freedom stay with us.
00:14:17.12\00:14:19.76