Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Wintley Phipps
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000265A
|
00:16 Welcome, to the Liberty Insider.
00:18 This is the program bringing you a discussion 00:21 on religious liberty issues in the United States 00:24 and indeed around the world. 00:26 There are many things happening in the world today 00:29 and religious liberty is often at the centre. 00:31 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine 00:34 and my guest on the program is Pastor Wintley Phipps 00:38 and as I've said before "The Voice." 00:40 A man characterized and I've not defined. Yes. 00:44 That by a very special voice that's really 00:48 as you've discussed given you an unique opportunity 00:51 to talk to the rich and the famous. 00:54 And the influential 00:55 and to witness to the faith that we hold. 00:57 That's right. 00:58 And this is what I want to talk about in this program 01:02 a few times on the Liberty Insider 01:04 we've taken the daily newspaper 01:07 and just picked our topic from that 01:09 and I can tell you anytime at random 01:11 you take the newspaper there will be 01:13 at least half a dozen issues front in the centre 01:15 that are religious liberty oriented. 01:17 The world is in turmoil and very often religious liberty 01:21 is what they're debating about. 01:23 And as you've traveled the world, you know, 01:25 how, what opportunity have you seen 01:27 to connect with some of these issues? 01:30 You know, I'm sure you've because you worked 01:32 with religious liberty for a while. 01:33 Well-- 01:35 In another program you've mentioned 01:37 the growing problem in the Soviet Union 01:40 or the ex - Soviet Union with the Eastern Orthodox Church 01:43 coming to a dominance. 01:45 Is it struck you and in the Ukraine 01:47 is that issues blown out of control that's playing into it. 01:51 I remember seeing a picture of the separatist 01:53 in Russian Military uniforms standing 01:56 this was in the Washington Post and next to them 01:58 was a metropolitan of the Eastern Orthodox Church. 02:01 So they told me instantly 02:02 the church is thrown there lot in with the separatist. 02:05 Yes, well, and I was just recently actually in Slovenia 02:10 and when you're there, you realize Croatia is right there 02:14 and the Ukraine is right there. 02:15 So, and as I listen to some of the things 02:20 that are been shared apparently there is there're alliances, 02:26 strange alliances between for example 02:29 the Muslims and the Christians. 02:35 In terms, yes. 02:36 Coming against the orthodox. Yes. 02:39 And you, and you, so religion is a very central part 02:46 of lot of these conflicts throughout Europe 02:51 and it's been my honor and my privilege to travel the world 02:54 and to see religious liberty and it's-- 02:58 when it's challenged and to make a difference. 03:01 Perhaps, I remember being in Fiji. 03:04 You know yeah its something-- 03:05 It's down where I came from down that part of the world. 03:07 Yeah. I'm from Australia originally. 03:10 That's right, and even throughout 03:15 some parts of Europe you'll find this struggle. 03:20 One of the things I wanted to do 03:22 is to share with you this narration. 03:25 And I think this might be a good time to do that. 03:29 It was written by Richard Harris of all people 03:34 who stared in Camelot and sang MacArthur Park 03:36 you know you remember that pretty well. 03:38 I have seen even quite a few movies. 03:39 Yeah, yeah. 03:40 And this is the time to throw in my-- 03:45 historical fixation on Oliver Cromwell. 03:48 He also stared in the film as Oliver Cromwell. 03:50 Right, exactly. 03:51 Well, He-- Richard Harris wrote to me 03:54 one of the most amazing religious liberty pieces. 03:59 And he wrote it out of the struggling Northern Ireland 04:03 between the Protestants and the Catholics. 04:06 And he wrote it as though Jesus was looking down on the earth 04:09 and what Christians were doing to each other in His name. 04:12 And He begins to rebuke at. 04:14 It takes about five minutes but it's powerful. 04:17 The title of it is "There are too many saviors 04:22 on my cross lending their blood to flood out my ballot-box 04:29 but with needs of their own. 04:31 Who put you there? 04:33 Who told you that that was your place? 04:36 You carry me secretly naked in your hearts, 04:39 and then clothe me publicly in armor, 04:42 crying 'God is on our side.' 04:44 Yet I openly cry 'Who is on My? Who, tell Me who? 04:49 You who bury your sons and crippled your fathers 04:52 whilst you buried My Father in crippling His Son.' 04:56 The antiquated Saxon sword, 04:58 rusty in its scabbard of time, now rises. 05:02 You gave it cause in My name, bringing shame 05:06 to the thorned head that once bled for your salvation. 05:11 I hear your daily cries in the far-off byways, 05:13 and your mouth pointing north and south, 05:16 and my Calvary looms again, desperate in rebirth. 05:21 Your earth is partitioned but in contrition 05:25 it is the partition in your hearts that you must abolish. 05:30 You nightly watchers of Gethsemane, 05:32 who sat through my nightly trial delivering me from evil, 05:37 now, deserted, I watch you share your silver. 05:41 Your purse, rich in hate, bleeds my veins of love, 05:45 shattering my bone in the dust of the Boxside 05:48 and the Shaghill Road. 05:50 There is no issue stronger than the tissue of love, 05:57 no need as holy as the palm outstretched 06:00 in the run of generosity, 06:02 no monstrosity greater than the anger you inflict. 06:06 Who gave you the right to increase your fold 06:09 and decrease the pastures of My flock? 06:13 Who gave you the right? Who gave it to you? 06:14 And in whose name do you fight? 06:17 I am not only in heaven, I am here, hear Me. 06:20 I am in you, feel Me, I am of you, be Me, 06:22 I am for you, need Me. 06:24 I am all mankind, only through kindness will you reach Me. 06:31 What masked and bannered men can rock the ark 06:33 and navigate a course to their own anointed kingdom come? 06:38 Who sailed their captain through waters 06:39 that they troubled in My font, 06:41 sinking in the ignorant seas of prejudice? 06:45 There is no virgin willing to conceive 06:47 in the heat of any bloody Sunday. 06:50 You crippled children, lying in cries on London Derry streets, 06:54 pushing your innocence to the full-flushed face 06:57 of Christian guns, battling the blame on each other. 07:01 Do not grow tongues in your 07:03 dying dumb wounds speaking My name. 07:07 I am not your prize in your death, 07:09 you have exorcised Me in your game of politics. 07:15 Go home to your knees, and worship Me in any cloth, 07:20 for I was never tailor-made. 07:24 And who told you I was? 07:26 Who gave you the right to think it? 07:27 Take your beads in your crippled hands. 07:30 But can you count My decades? 07:32 Take My love in your crippled hearts. 07:35 Can you count the loss? 07:36 I am not orange, I am not green, I am a half-ripe fruit, 07:41 needing both colors to grow into ripeness, 07:43 and shame on you to have withered my orchard! 07:46 I, in my poverty, alone without trust, 07:49 cry shame on you and shame on you again 07:52 for converting Me into a bullet 07:55 and then shooting Me into men's hearts. 07:58 The ageless legend of My trial grows old, 08:00 and the youth of your pulse, 08:02 staggering shamelessly from barricade to grave, 08:05 filing in the book of history My death one April, 08:07 Let Me in My betrayal lie low in My grave, 08:10 and you in your bitterness lie low in yours, 08:14 for our measurements grow strangely dissimilar." 08:18 And the last line he says, "As our Father, 08:21 who art in Heaven, have sullied be Thy Name!" 08:27 Incredible that's a prophetic voice isn't it. 08:30 Absolutely. Powerful. 08:32 And it's speaks that line it says 08:34 you have exorcized me in your game of politics. 08:38 I hope a few of our viewers know enough 08:41 the history there to pick out the different illusions. 08:43 And it's just rich with illusions too. 08:46 Ancient and modern Irish religious conflict. 08:48 Absolutely, absolutely. 08:50 And as I think it was between times in the discussion 08:53 I was saying that Oliver Cromwell laid 08:55 a lot of the groundwork for that. 08:57 Of course, the groundwork there initially 09:00 was Ireland was seen as a primitive outpost of England 09:04 so there is always an element of conquest. 09:06 But it sharpened when England became Protestant 09:10 and Ireland remained Catholic. 09:12 And then it became a religious war 09:14 and Oliver Cromwell after his victory 09:16 over the royalist forces as a puritan champion 09:21 he established a religious republic in England. 09:24 And few Americans know way before the American republic 09:27 there was a British or English republic 09:30 and he took his army of about 50,000 roundheads 09:36 or the new model army over to Ireland and just as-- 09:40 Decimated. 09:41 Prodigiously as he could it's the word he used 09:43 he just executed Catholics. 09:46 And then planted the orange men. Yeah. 09:48 Who were the Protestant agitators often in Ireland? 09:51 Yes, yes. 09:53 It's a sad story and there's no hero 09:55 and is that poem correctly says you know obviously 09:58 we're Protestants but you can't endorse 10:01 what Protestants did to Catholics. 10:03 And the IRA recently 10:04 in their terrorist campaign were vicious. 10:07 And that line the title of it so amazing 10:10 "There Are Too Many Saviors On My Cross." 10:13 I could see why you've memorize that. 10:15 Yeah, I've got a new appreciation of that actor. 10:17 Yeah right. 10:18 I don't know, I like to check what else he wrote. Yeah. 10:21 But that's powerful and it does speak 10:22 to the underlying dynamics so often 10:25 of a religious liberty issue. It's right. 10:26 It becomes very violent and trenched 10:29 but I tried to do this at liberty 10:31 we need to point people back to the spiritual 10:34 underpinnings of religious liberty. 10:35 It's not enough to think it's a legal just a legal thing 10:39 or a matter of peacemaking in the sense of 10:41 you know you get this, you get that 10:43 and the sides respect each other. 10:45 No, if it's not spirituality of a true comprehension 10:48 of higher values nothing it will come. 10:50 Religious liberty diverse 10:52 from the character of God is oppression. 10:55 Right, absolutely. 10:56 I mean when you think about it if you do not reflect, 11:02 resemble or reveal the character of God 11:05 you will use religion to hurt people and persecute people. 11:08 As this happened through the ages. 11:10 Absolutely. 11:11 In this program in one of our 11:13 international religious liberty conferences 11:15 I said there is too much religion in the world. 11:18 There is too much religion not in our spirituality. 11:21 Yeah absolutely. Well, thank you for sharing that. 11:23 That was powerful. Oh, with my joy. 11:26 I in advance of you appearing on this program 11:29 I remembering you saying, well I'll sing won't I. 11:31 Yeah, yeah. 11:32 Well, yes but I didn't think you would recite poet. 11:36 So you're on course on me I love poetry. 11:37 Oh, great, great. 11:39 In fact you've emboldened me 11:41 perhaps to share some poems in other programs. 11:43 Oh, wonderful. 11:44 But yeah I know you have a global vision and it's true. 11:48 In fact just that an American well, that really not. 11:51 Yeah. A Trinidadian, Canadian, American. 11:53 Yeah, that's right, that's right, exactly. 11:55 I could spend myself a few ways 11:57 but still to be speaking of issues 12:00 you know across the wide Atlantic 12:03 that are of ancient lineage 12:05 normally there's not that sensitivity 12:06 and I think part of that comes from traveling around. 12:09 Exactly. But the music. Seeing so many things. 12:12 The music done I mean for example my phone rings 12:15 and the gentleman says sir, 12:17 "I'm a minister of parliament from Finland. 12:21 I'm a member of the European Parliament. 12:23 And I would like to you to come and minister and sing, 12:28 speak at the European Parliament." 12:29 So for the couple of years. So you've sung there? 12:31 Yes, I was in Brussels and I got a chance to deliver 12:36 an address on human trafficking 12:38 and connecting it to the slavery of the past. 12:42 So but he was on YouTube, he was on the internet 12:46 listening to me saying and it touched his heart 12:49 and found me this minister of the European Parliament. 12:54 And so my life has all these opportunities have come up 12:58 about because music is a powerful entering 13:02 wedge opening doors and to place-- 13:04 traces that I could have never gone. 13:06 Now, I know music and poetry. Yes. 13:08 Though these sorts of things touch people 13:13 in a very direct way but I think it bypasses 13:15 some of the inhibitions that people have resisting message. 13:18 And defenses. Yeah. Absolutely. 13:20 As you get their emotions in them. 13:22 Absolutely, and you learn a lot 13:23 about the true meaning of freedom 13:26 from some of these experiences I'll never forget 13:30 you know I was singing at a prison in 13:35 actually one of the reasons I've done a lot of singing 13:38 in prison is because one day I was on a train 13:41 from Baltimore to Philadelphia and on Amtrak 13:43 when you don't want somebody to sit next to you, 13:45 you camp out you put your papers 13:46 and you're fooling all around you. 13:48 Well, this-- so this gentleman who camped up 13:50 but he looked really discouraged. 13:51 He looked like he needed Jesus to me. 13:53 So I said is anybody sitting next to you? 13:55 He said no and he pulled up his papers. 13:57 And he was a Chuck Colson of Watergate fame. 14:01 And we became dear friends. 14:03 And he began to take me took to prisons with him 14:05 and my eyes were opened I'll talk a little about that later. 14:08 But-- 14:09 Well, we need to take a break on it 14:11 because I'd like you share more. 14:13 Its not long before he died 14:15 I actually heard him in a close interview 14:19 explaining one of his books the Two Kingdoms. 14:21 Oh, yes, yes. Kingdoms in Conflict. 14:22 Kingdoms in Conflict. Right. 14:24 But and few months before he died 14:25 I visit him on airport on the concourse 14:27 and I was walking down and I saw him walking toward me. 14:30 And I regret to this day I didn't stop him 14:33 and talked because I respected the fact 14:36 that his life clearly changed radically. 14:39 Absolutely, absolutely. In that prison experience. 14:40 Let's take a break we'll be back after the break 14:43 to talk more with Wintley Phipps 14:44 about sharing religious liberty 14:47 and speaking directly to the hearts of people 14:51 sometimes that are in positions of apparent influence. 14:54 We will right back. |
Revised 2014-12-17