Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Wintley Phipps
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000263B
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00:03 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:05 Before the break I don't about the you viewers 00:09 but I was spellbound. 00:11 Thank you. 00:12 Wintley Phipps is our guest today. 00:13 Singing "I believe." 00:15 But we were talking about Nelson Mandela 00:18 or in the jump off point was of course 00:19 you wrote this article for Liberty Magazine. 00:21 Yeah. 00:22 Remembering him and you're connection there. 00:24 You were at the day he was released 00:27 and announced his released. 00:29 And lot of things float from that didn't they? 00:31 Yes. 00:32 And before we get furtherer I have got to tell you 00:35 that I have spoken a bit about him lately, 00:38 interjection with your article. 00:39 And I read in his biography he said something interesting. 00:42 He said "I was not born longing to be free." 00:46 He said "I was born free." Wow. 00:48 I just love that. 00:49 Wow, yeah, yeah and it was my honor 00:51 and privilege to have actually 00:53 met Nelson Mandela on several occasions. 00:56 And when he first came to the US 00:59 I also met him again at the church 01:02 and then my wife and I were privileged to meet him 01:08 not long before he died at his library 01:11 and so when you walked into his presence 01:15 there was a princely nature about 01:18 and there's on doubt about it. 01:20 My wife says he had the most supple hands 01:24 that she had ever shake hand. 01:26 It's like your wife is like my mother 01:27 I have discovered this is hands 01:29 I would see a looking her own hands. 01:31 We met at the doctor the other day 01:32 and she said "He had such big hands." 01:33 Yeah, yeah. 01:35 The hands are very important 01:36 and in different cultures they mean a lot. 01:38 Yes, that's right. 01:39 And as Christians you know the Christ and the hands. 01:41 Yeah, that's right. 01:42 It's how you touch other people. 01:44 Yeah, that's right. And it means a lot. 01:45 So I know you and I have talked before 01:48 a number of times about Nelson Mandela 01:50 but there is religious liberty in his story. 01:53 It isn't just you know a man suffering 01:58 to liberate his nation. 01:59 He exemplifies a lot of the principles 02:02 that characterize religious freedom and tolerance 02:05 but tolerance is not really good word 02:06 for religious liberty. 02:08 But comprehending the rights of others 02:10 to believe and practice of faith. 02:12 Exactly, and I saw a unique angle to this 02:18 and that is that apartheid 02:21 as we know it is the result of what happens 02:26 when religious people and the state 02:29 persuade the state to use its power 02:33 to enforce their religious beliefs. 02:37 And the whole apartheid regiment 02:41 had a theology behind it. 02:42 Absolutely, it was. It wasn't just bigotry. 02:45 I mean it played into bigotry 02:46 but it had a very clear religious structure. 02:49 Very so, I call it a religion political mis-creation. 02:53 Yeah, because it was based upon the Dutch 03:00 reformed churches belief 03:02 that God not only created man 03:09 but he created the black man to be sub-subservient. 03:13 One of the great moments of my life 03:15 was I had the chance to ride in a car 03:19 for two hours from London, England to Oxford 03:22 with Doctor John Stott the great-- 03:24 The two hours would have been halfway across. 03:26 Oh, yeah. Oh, great, great. 03:28 Oxford is just really on the outskirts of London. 03:30 That's right, great, great theologian 03:32 as a matter he was-- 03:33 Stott. Oh, John Stott. 03:35 Doctor Stott he was he was chaplain 03:37 to the queen from 1959 to 1992. 03:40 And on our ride together 03:43 which is an amazing moment for me. 03:46 I remember him saying you know when I get to heaven he said, 03:49 one of the things I want to talk to God about 03:52 is that why in the areas of the world 03:54 where evangelical Christianity 03:56 was the most dynamic and vibrant. 03:59 That those very areas of the world 04:01 were breeding grounds for intolerance 04:03 and hatred and racism. 04:05 And then Doctor Stott began to school me 04:07 by going around the globe 04:09 and he started in the Northern Ireland. 04:12 If you never been to Northern Ireland 04:13 as I have been Belfast and ministered there. 04:16 You don't realize how devout in their faith 04:19 both Protestants and Catholics are 04:21 but there is this bad blood 04:23 that keeps them at each others throats. 04:25 And then he went down to South Africa. 04:28 I tell people all the time 04:29 if you haven't heard singing in a Dutch 04:31 reform church in South Africa you missing half of your life. 04:34 They love the Lord they passionate 04:36 but they also provided the theological underpinnings 04:39 for one of the worst systems 04:41 of racism the world has ever seen. 04:44 Again apartheid was the belief 04:48 that God cursed the black man. 04:51 And when he cursed him 04:53 he made him to be only a hewer of wood 04:56 and drawer of water which meant 04:58 that he was to be a manual laborer 04:59 and that's why they didn't educate 05:02 black people in South Africa. 05:04 Simple misreading Bible texts 05:06 that suited the highest that they had. 05:08 And this is the problem I see with the religion 05:10 that very easily and as you say 05:12 devout people quite easily link 05:14 their own proclivities with God's will. 05:18 Yeah. They don't discriminate. 05:19 And so to the degree that someone religious 05:21 they could be even more dangerous. 05:23 And we're seeing in that of course in the Middle East. 05:24 Absolutely one of the scriptures 05:26 that they use you would never think 05:28 that they would use and the scripture 05:30 was that God created of one blood all men. 05:35 Okay, well that sounds like antiapartheid doesn't it? 05:38 Yeah. 05:39 But they say, they say but you got to read 05:41 the second half of that scripture. 05:43 The second half of that scripture says 05:45 and He established bounds of habitation 05:48 which meant they were to be separate. 05:52 And so yes they conveniently 05:55 used religio ideas or religio political ideas 06:01 to build this system. 06:03 Doctor Stott didn't stop and South Africa 06:06 he ended up in the Bible belt of America. 06:10 I was thinking that it is here. 06:12 The very place in America 06:14 where we consider to be the most religious 06:16 the south the most devout, 06:18 the most evangelical also happened to be the place 06:22 that was the breeding ground for a lot of 06:25 not only hatred and intolerance but segregation. 06:29 And it had a theology. 06:31 And I had a theology behind it. 06:33 Absolutely and the not just with then slaves 06:37 and the antebellum south the whole wars 06:41 against Indians was done 06:43 because they were not Christians. 06:44 They did not worship God 06:46 and a lot of text was invoked on it. 06:47 People have forgotten on that. 06:48 Yeah and I-- 06:49 Obviously the impulse was the desire to get their land. 06:52 And it's about butting of the moment of settlers 06:55 but they had a theology on it. 06:56 Yeah, and I could accord I ran across sometimes ago 07:00 it said it's not an easy step to hurt the body of one 07:05 whose soul you have already damned 07:08 in your mind, in your imagination. 07:10 And so when you see people as less than yourself 07:17 you're then it's a easy step to hurt them. 07:21 And so what Nelson Mandela did 07:24 was not just teardown a political system 07:28 he tore down a religio-political system. 07:32 A system that used state power 07:35 to enforce misguided theological believes. 07:38 And so to me he was a great champion 07:41 for religious freedom as a result. 07:42 Absolutely, at the risk of making our 07:46 or giving the idea to our viewers 07:48 that I'm under strain movie buff 07:51 I mentioned that in following his story the film "Invictus." 07:56 Yes it's a great film. It's just powerful debate. 07:58 Obviously an actor Morgan Freeman played Mandela. 08:02 But I thought he was true 08:03 to what he would look like at that time. 08:06 Yes, yes. 08:08 Yes the spirit of forgiveness in the film "Invictus" 08:13 it was to do with the football team. 08:15 Right or rugby as it known. 08:18 Yeah, rugby. 08:20 Yeah well football overseas. Yeah, yeah. 08:22 But technically its rugby. Yeah. 08:25 But I wish I could remember 08:26 some of the things he told us advisors 08:28 but it was basically we have to forgive they are us now. 08:33 It was this inclusion that was powerful. 08:36 And yet religion very often is being used to create another. 08:39 And you know tribalism does that pretty well 08:42 but religion is more toxic because when it creates another 08:45 you are not only physically different 08:47 you're in different realm you may be beyond salvation. 08:51 You represent the devil. Yeah. 08:52 And that's lowers the personal level 08:54 where then the physical abuse is gonna follow. 08:56 And a lot of people don't realize 08:58 Nelson Mandela was raised a Methodist. 09:03 He was baptized as a Methodist 09:05 and for some strange reasons well, I should say strange 09:08 you have on both sides of the divide 09:11 you had the English and you have the Dutch. 09:16 Which led to the world war. 09:17 A world war. People has a history. 09:20 And so the Dutch were pro-apartheid 09:22 so consequently the English were going to be antiapartheid. 09:26 And so you had all of the English religions 09:29 now all English denominations Presbyterians 09:33 and even catholic and Anglican 09:35 and Methodist were antiapartheid. 09:38 So Nelson Mandela grew up in a faith tradition 09:43 that was one of the-- 09:44 Not so accepting antiapartheid. 09:45 Very antiapartheid and so he was taught that 09:50 and then he was also taught forgiveness 09:53 and he was also taught the faith of Christ. 09:55 But I believe he learned 09:57 some of that practically speaking in prison. 09:59 And I have read little bit of his story. 10:01 Like he tells there was one of the prison guys 10:03 with a swastikas tattooed on his arm. 10:05 And the guys said I'm gonna break you 10:07 and boy and all of these horrible things. 10:09 Yes. And he kept control of himself. 10:11 And he kept itself respect and we're running out of time 10:16 but one of the most amazing stories 10:18 Nelson Mandela tells of his battle 10:20 to get long pants for the prisoners. 10:21 Right, just I love that. 10:22 There's lot of symbolism in that. 10:23 Yes, absolutely. Yeah. 10:25 But he had a great experience. Oh, it was, it was. 10:28 And I appreciate that you've wrote that story for Liberty. 10:30 Well thank you it was my privilege. 10:32 I thank you for that opportunity. 10:33 Yeah. 10:36 If you got any last words that to say 10:38 what's the takeaway for you on Nelson Mandela. 10:40 The takeaway for Nelson Mandela 10:42 is that never should we use 10:46 our religious believes to hurt other people-- 10:50 love is the answer. 10:53 I tried myself on being some more of a student of history 10:57 and I have noticed particularly in our modern era 11:00 that so often transforming leaders 11:04 come to that position via prison. 11:09 But the transformation is not always good. 11:12 Its worth remembering that Adolf Hitler 11:13 went into prison after a fail takeover attempt 11:17 and came out formed in his opinion 11:19 to destroy a whole people. 11:23 And look at the Bible 11:24 and I remember that Joseph spent those two years in prison 11:29 that hardened his in character of obedience to God. 11:34 Its worth remembers the people like Nelson Mandela 11:38 and there are many of them have used their time in prison 11:42 to reexamine themselves spiritually. 11:45 Its not accident in my analysis of Nelson Mandela 11:49 that a man who was an activist, a hardened lawyer 11:53 but what that means came out of prison 11:58 converted in his very soul 12:00 and dedicated to radical transformation 12:03 by love accommodation and forgiveness. 12:07 Thereby lies the path for true freedom 12:09 and I believe the true religious liberty. 12:14 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17