Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the
program bringing you news,
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views discussion and
up-to-date information
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on religious liberty
issues in the United States
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and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on this program,
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very special
guest is Wintley Phipps.
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Now this is where
I make a big pause
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because how do I summarize you--
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religious liberty activists.
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Yes, yes.
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You've worked
sometime for our church even.
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Yes.
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Pastor. Yes.
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But I think the
thing that single thing
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that defines you is "The Voice."
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Yeah, there well.
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I call it my dominant gift.
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Yes, that's a good
way of put to your gift
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and it's certainly
been a central part
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of your ministry over the years.
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Yes.
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My kids are very keen on
TV program called The Voice.
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Oh, yes, yes.
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And I have watched
that and I have been struck
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by how many less
than talented voices
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there are in the world.
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But you've sung
before presidents,
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you've sung all over the world
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and your voice is
really been a medium
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to project in incredible values.
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I think-- Thank you.
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Not just a talent but
there's a message there.
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Yes.
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But what I want
to talk about too
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is another aspect a
recent aspect of your career.
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It's Liberty author. Ah, yes.
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Thanks to you and
I was very grateful
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for the opportunity you gave me
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to share my
experience in religious liberty
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in South Africa and
seeing it from my perspective
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and being able to
put that and print that.
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Yeah, I have got a
lot of good feedback
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from that night
certainly hope our viewers
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read Liberty Magazine.
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And its program is
partly intended to be a stimulus
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for them to read
this regular magazine.
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It comes out six times a year
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and its largely
targeting thought leaders,
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politicians,
presidents, mayors and so on.
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And allow me to say
that next to Brother Hegstad
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who you know
was the editor for--
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He was Mr. Liberty in my mind.
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He was Mr.
Liberty for over 30 years.
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Yeah, absolutely.
You've done an amazing job.
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Oh, thank you.
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And I want to thank
you for your contribution.
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Well, it's nice
to get a few kudos.
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If we sit off
cameras not always positive.
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That's right.
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But no, I feel very
comfortable that Liberty
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and I feel
privileged that I could be part
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of what Hegstad
and others before him--
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Yes. Put in place.
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Let's-- it was began in 1906
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that's a long time ago.
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Well, yes it is.
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And it's very close to
the origins of our church
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and it went back
further with A. T. Jones
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but that's another program.
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Right, right.
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Yeah the article you
wrote was very particular
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it wasn't just
about South Africa
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it was about Nelson Mandela.
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Nelson Mandela.
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And for me he's been an
inspiration for many years
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because I read
his story way back
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and he spent
those years in prison.
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Yes.
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And the best part of his life
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when you really
think about 27 years.
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Yeah, 27 years, yeah.
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Plenty of people that
kill someone in cold blood
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and they're out in
you know 10-15 years.
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Yeah, that's right.
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He had high
aspirations for the freedom
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in his country and for all
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he knew he would
have died in prison
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but came out to lead his country
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and that's what
really got my attention
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how this man who as
a socialist early on,
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he was a revolutionary.
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Right.
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He was rousing up
against unjust system
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and then he was sent to
jail probably to finish his life
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but when he came out there
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didn't appear to
be any bitterness.
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That's right.
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He healed the
wounds of his country
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and was a moral model I think
for just like Mahatma Gandhi.
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Also from South Africa
most people don't realize
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they think he was,
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he was an Indian but
grew up in South Africa
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and I think Nelson Mandela
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was an
inspiration and your story
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I think
encapsulated that beautifully.
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And you were
there at the couple of
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at least one key
point in this story.
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Yes, well, it was 1990
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I got a call from my
friend Jessie Jackson
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who is a very intuitive,
very wise man experiences
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from civil rights and you know
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he marched with Doctor
King and learned a lot.
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He was one of
the junior to King.
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Yeah, well, exactly.
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And his
instincts are very unusual
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and he said to me come
go to South Africa with me.
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And I said okay.
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And so I jumped on the plane
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and found myself
landing in Johannesburg
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on the 8th of February 1990.
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The next day we
are in the office
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of President F. W. de Klerk.
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This is the president of
the old regime of Africana.
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Exactly. Yes, my
father visited there.
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My father use to
work for temperance
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for the
Seventh-day Adventist church
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and I remember once he came back
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from a visit to South Africa
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and he said he met
with probably was de Klerk
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because it was about that era
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and met with the top
guys and he came back
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and he says "I never
met with a harder hearted
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more rigorous sort of a group."
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It was like
before the Grand Council.
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You're right, right.
They were tough cookies.
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Yeah, yes.
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And we also met with
not only F. W. de Klerk
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but both of who is
really the foreign minister
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who was behind a
lot of the intrigue
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that was going on.
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He was very-- And
the police action.
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Yes the police action
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but he was very
wise and he carried on--
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But that states
they had seen the way
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that winds were blowing.
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Well, actually...
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when we after the
diplomatic pleasantries here
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he said to us
"you've come a long way
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to tell us apartheid is wrong.
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He said but we want you to know
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you're now
preaching to the choir.
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He said "We know it's wrong."
He said "But we need time."
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And he cast plea was for time
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and of course it's very its
I should put it its very easy
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when you are the
oppressor to plead for time.
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Yes.
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And so those who
were being oppressed
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where not taking
kindly to any pleas for time.
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But you have to wonder
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when they got the
true religion on this.
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Yeah.
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I have to believe
that they themselves knew
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that was wrong long before.
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Absolutely.
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World opinion
turned against them.
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He would think so and
then he said we need time.
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And those who
were being oppressed
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felt that that plea for time
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was also for how
they would use the time
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and the time they thought
would be used to privatize
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many of the public
holding at the time South Africa
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the diamond mines the
gold mines were all controlled
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by the state as it were.
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And so they
thought to plea for time
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was to privatize and
sell off they opinions.
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Oh, you put your
finger on why South Africa
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got away with this
so long controlling
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so much of the
world gold and diamonds?
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Yeah.
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It was not in the interest
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of the great
powers to bring them down.
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That's right and so--
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But yet Nelson Mandela
really was the passive vehicle
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from prison to
bringing them down, wasn't it.
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Well, which is
interesting for me
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we have this amazing
meeting with the president
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and then he did not tell us
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that the very next day
he had a secret meeting
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with Nelson
Mandela to inform him
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that the next day 10th
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that he was going
before the cameras
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and the press to
announce to the world
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that the next day the 11th
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that he would be
released from prison.
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And so as a consequence
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I was privileged to
be there in the crowd
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that welcomed Nelson Mandela
when he came out of prison.
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Well, prison and it
was an electric time
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it's very
difficult to explain the joy
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the excitement that gripped
South Africa in that moment.
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And then to see this man
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who had spent 27 years in prison
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come out and as you
said with no bitterness
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with one word of bitterness,
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one word of
rancour one word of anger.
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He could have set
crowd the whole at loose.
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Yeah, he could have
really brought flames
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South Africa could
have gone up by flames.
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I've listened to that
speech. I have got it on a CD.
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And I have
listened to it many times.
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And it's wonderful and he says
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I'm just to serve I don't
know if you use the word serve.
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But I am here at
your service. Yes, yes.
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He didn't speak as those here
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I have come to take what's mine.
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Exactly.
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It was very good speech.
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In the article I have mentioned
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God gave me this
phrase that he literally
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counseled a nation back
from the brink of extinction.
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Because South Africa
would not be the South Africa
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today had not Nelson Mandela
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had the kind of magnanimity,
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the kind of
spiritual in afforded
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to take the cause of the earth.
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Spiritual power I
believe. Yeah, absolutely.
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Talking to you or
listening to you speak
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I could see hear
your singing voice.
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It's resonating to me.
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I know you've
volunteered to do this.
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Absolutely.
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Why don't we take a
moment and now you've got a song
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that I think will
fit in here nicely.
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Absolutely.
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Sing to our
audience "I believe."
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"I believe" and
it's a song believing
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when things are tough
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you still have
to keep believing.
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Absolutely.
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I believe for every
drop of rain that falls
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A flower grows
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I believe that
somewhere in the darkest night
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A candle glows
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I believe for
everyone who goes astray
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Someone will come
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To show the way
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I believe
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I believe
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I believe above the
storm a smallest prayer
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Will still be heard
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I believe that
someone in the great somewhere
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Hears every word
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Every time I hear
a newborn baby cry
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Or touch a leaf, or see the sky
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Then I know why
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I believe
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I believe above the
storm a smallest prayer
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Will still be heard
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I believe that
someone in the great somewhere
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Hears every word
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Every time I hear
a newborn baby cry
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Or touch a leaf, or see the sky
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Then I know why
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I believe
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Every time I hear
a newborn baby cry
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Or touch a leaf, or see the sky
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Then I know why
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I believe
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Then I know why
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I believe
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Amen.
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We got to believe
in freedom. Yes, yes.
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And all of the higher values.
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Let's a take a break,
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we can't talk
too much after that.
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Let's take a break
we'll be right back
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to continue our discussion
00:13:57.70\00:13:59.17
with Wintley
Phipps, "The Voice."
00:13:59.20\00:14:01.14