Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program brining you
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news, views,
information, analysis
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and even an occasional opinion
on religious liberty events
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name, Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest Orlan Johnson,
director of Public Affairs--
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every time I say
this it stretches.
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Director of Public
Affairs and Religious Liberty
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for the North American Division
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of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
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Long title. Yeah.
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It's very easy for
Liberty magazine, that's it.
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Let's talk about--
and you are an attorney
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which I think a
wonderful background
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to bring to this
job but let's talk about
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some of the Supreme
Court cases recently
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one that's not too
far in the distance
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was a discussion that went
to the Supreme Court obviously
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on whether it was acceptable
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to have different
religious prayers offered
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at a town meeting
in Greece, New York.
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But in a way it's not new
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because this has
come up over and over.
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It's been an
issue that's been going
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back and forth quite sometime
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regarding the idea of
prayer in public places
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or prayer in public schools
and things of that nature.
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I think one of
the instinct dynamics
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of this particular case
is there was a lot of folk
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this on the
different types of religions
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that could be
impacted by the prayers
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which is something that is
little bit more of new wants
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than what you had in the past.
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But at the end of the day
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they still came
to the conclusion
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that assuming you are
not going to be engage
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in activity that's
going to create some type
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of state interest
that really is detrimental
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to a larger group
of individuals that
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it really
something that can go forward
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but it should
go forward in a way
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where you are not
exactly gonna be putting
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pressure on any specific group
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what they can't do
but to be more clear
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in certain thing
that they would be--
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Well, you know, never
caught in different directions.
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They didn't want to be
dictating to government
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and to church ministers
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or religious
representatives and that's fine.
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But in the past
often these prayers
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of being required to be generic
so that they are acceptable
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to all people
well, not offensive.
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That not
requiring that this time
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and I remember
hearing the discussion
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of the debate on
the-- among the justices
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and they did
seem to be accepting
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that certain
religious minorities
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would excluded if not offended
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and that was sort of
unavoidable but acceptable.
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Right, and I think we
have seen a little bit of that
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in particular in state houses
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some of the officials of
the North American division
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and I went to
engage in a prayer--
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Yeah, that was a
wonderful thing, of course.
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And it turned out quite well
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but before we went
there were clear restrictions
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and guidelines that they want
to give us to try to make sure
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that we did not necessarily
offend a large group.
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I mean, at the end of the
day almost everything you do
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will end offending
somebody in some form of fashion
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but as long as turning
out not to be something
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where you're actually
targeting a specific group
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I think that's
really where the laws
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really trying to go.
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Yeah, and of
course, at the senate
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and in the
Congress we have chaplains
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that were set up
the very beginning
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James Madison not
too happy about that.
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Right. Right.
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And so I think it puts the
Supreme Court on the merits
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because they
themselves cooked up a concept
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they call ceremonial deism
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I think to dismiss
these sort of inconveniences
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and I think they are right too
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because
ceremonial deism is religion
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removed of its real meaning.
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Right. Right.
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It's just now so the cultural
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but when you get
a specific a faith
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into even at the
senate of the Congress
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to give a prayer it
cannot be too strip down.
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No, not necessarily
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but I think in
terms of you know,
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obviously your
description of who you are,
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you know, "personal authority"
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may be I think
is where individuals
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start to get a little
bit hampered by in the say
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but I think its important
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that you be clear
on what you believe
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and I think you
can get that done
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in a prayer
without being offensive.
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I think that's
what the Supreme Court
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is saying that you know,
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"we are a nation that's
supposed to respect religion."
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We're a nation that
believes in God in large part
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and therefore concept of prayer
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is really a part of who we are
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but how do you do it in a way
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where you don't
end offending anyone.
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You know, unless you
belong to the very small freedom
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from religion and foundation
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its probably not
grossly offensive
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and clearly as
people who believe in God
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we would not find any offensive
of any one of Christian
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or Jewish or even Islamic faith
just giving a generic prayer.
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So I don't see the danger
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directly from what's done.
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In my view I have a
little bit of apprehension
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so that writing large what--
the community is happy with.
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Because of the
community right now
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they are probably happy
with something benignly general
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but you could go
down south and you know,
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they want a southern Baptist
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real far damnation sort of thing
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and that might be
not only offensive,
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it might be targeted
against some Christian
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or non-Christian
minority that they don't like.
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So it could be
exclusive-- excluding.
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And so the, you know,
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I'm playing devils
advocate to a degree here
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but I just didn't like
the justice's right up front
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before they reach their
end points so to deciding.
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Well, that some
people will be excluded
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or offended and that's it.
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Well, you know, I
kind of look at this
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a little interesting way as well
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because even
when you think about
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the pledge of allegiance
for example and it wasn't until
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Eisenhower in 1950s
came with the "under God."
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But the under God concept
when you talk to the people--
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And we are under God. Right.
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He didn't really
want that languid in these
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so much for "religious reasons"
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but because of the
large communist activity
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happening at the time
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he thought that was
something that would essential
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which in part almost
sounds more political
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than it does anything else
and Supreme Court decisions
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and all these other
decisions that we get
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we still have to remember
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that there is a
certain political tone
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that get attached to it.
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Right and you are getting closer
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to what we actually
put in Liberty Magazine
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when we had an article
on the Greece prayer issue.
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We titled it powerless prayer
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and if you're
talking about true spiritual
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reality of a prayer in
such a formal public way
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with politics mixed in it ceases
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to become
narrowly speaking a prayer.
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It's really a statement
and it could be as much
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a statement of
political religion,
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political intent
is that is of faith.
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Absolutely, and
when we were actually
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with the Maryland
General Assembly this year
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the prayer that
is given is actually
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read into the record
of the daily activities
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that becomes a
formal part of the action
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and that's one of the reasons
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why they try not to have
certain language in there
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because its not
just simply an activity
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that happen at the beginning
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but it now
becomes a "official part"
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of that
government activity that day.
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Well, we really thought
this one was a great thing
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that you are able to
negotiate that as public prayer.
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Clearly in North
America it was once
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not any overwhelming
Christian it was a Protestant
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and how could we
find that offensive.
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And there's
nothing wrong with society
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expressing its
religious sentiments.
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Even through
government really its just--
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there's a structural danger
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if government is
allowed to project
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and promote or even enforce
religion at the end of the day
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then you got a
potential for mishears.
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No, I think--
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But its actually
an encouraging thing
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when there is any
night spiritual sensibility
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that can be
allowed to be expressed.
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But, you know, we're--
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in the United State
diverse religious community
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beyond what the
frame is were imagined.
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Yeah, I can imagine
if Jefferson and Franklin
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others were here today
that they would look and say,
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wow, this is exactly
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what we thought
this was gonna be.
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Now, I mean, I hear a lot
of and you have read them too,
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lot of read and heard a
lot of high flying rhetoric
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about the four
sides of the frame is--
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well, let's find that
something that works quite well
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but there's no reasonable way
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that they are looking
forward could seen our cultural
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and religious diversities--
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because its really
just a melting potter
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or bubbling colder
enough of issues and initiative
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and view points they
couldn't have seen that.
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But there would no logic.
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They were Englishmen
barely removed from England
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by a revolution
that they fermented.
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But this was
largely English society.
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Yeah, I think the big thing
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and we've talked
about this before.
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I'm not sure they
could have actually foreseen
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but I think the idea of
making the law flexible enough
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to be able to taken
to consideration potent
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to change is down the road.
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I think that was probably
the real genius that went on
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but in terms of them
actually thinking that
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they knew where
this was gonna end up
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and could have any idea
would be where we are today,
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it would be far beyond
the pale for that to be,
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you know, possible
at least in my mind.
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Yeah, I mean, that the only one
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that we know his thoughts
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on down the line
was Thomas Jefferson
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and we don't
want to buy into that.
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He thought religion--
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Christianity would die
out in the United States.
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He was fine on the
terror of the French relation.
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So he was a bit of a firebrand,
a wonderful founding father,
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I mean, he per quested
incredible legacy of tolerance
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and of good
governance to the US.
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But his philosophical view point
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and his
prophetic vision not sure.
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Yeah, and well, you
know, when you think about it
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and we were-- you know,
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as we talked earlier
Jefferson and Franklin
00:10:11.11\00:10:13.55
have spent a lot
of time in France.
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And while they were
there they had a chance
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to see what I would
call the ups and downs
00:10:17.39\00:10:19.39
and reviewing the
pluses and minuses
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of revolution
versus non-revolution
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and you know
Protestantism the growth
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and the stamping
out all at the same time
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and I think that helped
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to kind of create some of
the view points that were,
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they ended up drafting--
00:10:33.45\00:10:34.48
Franklin
probably knew more about
00:10:34.51\00:10:35.65
French ladies
that French government.
00:10:35.68\00:10:37.29
Like to see
just-- Well, you know--
00:10:37.32\00:10:38.96
He is the playboy but
Jefferson was ambassador,
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wasn't he for
France for a while?
00:10:42.69\00:10:44.22
And he was a student
of politics and of history
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and that's I think
why he saw the abuses
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of governmental
power and of religion
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that he was so keen
on the French revolution.
00:10:55.31\00:10:57.19
Because was even
though it went so far
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and you read Great Controversy
the Seventh-day Adventist
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particularly we
know the godlessness
00:11:01.92\00:11:03.93
of the French revolution
was more than a passing element
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if it was hatred of
religion for a while
00:11:06.88\00:11:09.53
that had horrible consequences.
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But I think Jefferson saw it
more as a clearing of the air
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and enabling
individual self determination.
00:11:15.30\00:11:19.54
So he didn't shy
away from the worst
00:11:19.57\00:11:21.97
of the French
revolution but we don't--
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nobody would want
that in the United States.
00:11:23.99\00:11:25.80
He was quite
willing to throw you know,
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a lot of patriots to
the more of a revolution
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if it guaranteed freedom.
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And I think the interesting
thing about Jefferson
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as well is I don't know
if anybody would consider him
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to be extremely religious man.
00:11:37.27\00:11:38.86
No.
00:11:38.89\00:11:39.92
But I think he was somebody
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that thought the
importance of making sure
00:11:41.36\00:11:43.55
that you safeguard
at ones willingness.
00:11:43.58\00:11:44.61
He had great respect
for what religious faith
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brought out in human beings.
00:11:48.31\00:11:49.59
And I think that in my opinion
is the most important thing
00:11:49.62\00:11:52.35
that we can do in
area of religious liberty
00:11:52.38\00:11:54.89
as it relates to
any political leader.
00:11:54.92\00:11:57.10
Not expecting them to decide,
you know, what I would like
00:11:57.13\00:11:59.45
to be a
Seventh-day Adventist like you
00:11:59.48\00:12:01.08
but have at least the respect
00:12:01.11\00:12:03.16
for what we do
stand for and understand
00:12:03.19\00:12:05.45
the importance of the fabric
00:12:05.48\00:12:07.75
that is also
part of what we bring.
00:12:07.78\00:12:09.84
And I think that's essential.
00:12:09.87\00:12:11.52
Well, you know,
playing not a devils advocate
00:12:11.55\00:12:13.71
but I'll throw things.
00:12:13.74\00:12:14.78
That you already you figured out
00:12:14.81\00:12:15.84
I'll jump different directions.
00:12:15.87\00:12:17.88
We were talking at
lunch time about Guatemala,
00:12:17.91\00:12:21.12
Central America
where my wife comes from
00:12:21.15\00:12:23.47
and the history of
that part of the world
00:12:23.50\00:12:26.52
is not being too
good in the long haul
00:12:26.55\00:12:29.32
but in the short term a
lot of dictators and problems
00:12:29.35\00:12:32.93
and when I was
first married with my wife
00:12:32.96\00:12:34.99
they had civil war in Guatemala,
00:12:35.02\00:12:36.80
guerrilla movement
but it really hit the fan
00:12:36.83\00:12:39.90
when I a very--
00:12:39.93\00:12:44.92
trying to think of
an appropriate word
00:12:44.95\00:12:47.07
and aggressively
evangelical religious
00:12:47.10\00:12:52.57
general took over Ríos Montt.
00:12:52.60\00:12:56.05
He basically believed
heaven was on his side
00:12:56.08\00:12:58.57
and it was his divine
purpose to solve the revolution
00:12:58.60\00:13:02.56
and to get rid
of the non-believers
00:13:02.59\00:13:04.80
or that is the word,
00:13:04.83\00:13:05.93
not his religion he
saw them more as the enemy.
00:13:05.96\00:13:08.46
And they had a
scorched earth policy
00:13:08.49\00:13:10.70
a blitter--hole
religious of Indians
00:13:10.73\00:13:13.55
that's when the many of
the refuges came to the US.
00:13:13.58\00:13:16.24
It was a dark
time for Guatemala.
00:13:16.27\00:13:18.67
And so the analogy I
would draw not the analogy
00:13:18.70\00:13:21.59
but turning it to
the US the last thing
00:13:21.62\00:13:24.70
we want our leaders
didn't have the much Jefferson
00:13:24.73\00:13:28.93
and we don't want them
today with anybody president
00:13:28.96\00:13:31.54
or the otherwise who
is a religious visionary
00:13:31.57\00:13:33.86
trying to write their
wishes into the constitution.
00:13:33.89\00:13:37.22
It's actually good
that the government tends
00:13:37.25\00:13:39.87
towards this
business as usual secularism.
00:13:39.90\00:13:42.50
It's good an ideal
have taken in that row
00:13:42.53\00:13:46.18
to keep religion
away from their preview
00:13:46.21\00:13:50.06
and let us do what we want.
00:13:50.09\00:13:51.75
No, I couldn't agree more and,
00:13:51.78\00:13:54.26
you know, what is
interesting I wonder
00:13:54.29\00:13:55.85
when we think about
what the future is gonna be
00:13:55.88\00:13:58.59
and we know the
prophecy is telling us
00:13:58.62\00:14:00.68
that at some point the
trials and tribulations
00:14:00.71\00:14:04.05
from a religious stand point--
00:14:04.08\00:14:05.19
Even in the US.
00:14:05.22\00:14:06.27
And even in the US will come
back into play in a large way.
00:14:06.30\00:14:10.44
I'm still trying to visualize
exactly how that would be.
00:14:10.47\00:14:13.80
I mean, we think
about the Waldensians,
00:14:13.83\00:14:16.40
you know the
running to the hills,
00:14:16.43\00:14:17.77
the hiding in the mountains
and I'm wondering if the world
00:14:17.80\00:14:22.74
that we're living
in now is that exactly
00:14:22.77\00:14:25.47
how would turn out.
00:14:25.50\00:14:26.58
Well, nothing
ever happens exactly.
00:14:26.61\00:14:28.72
It's a fallacy of that
00:14:28.75\00:14:30.08
history repeats
itself, history doesn't.
00:14:30.11\00:14:32.84
What repeats
itself is human nature
00:14:32.87\00:14:36.60
expressed through
different historical periods
00:14:36.63\00:14:38.92
and they tend to be
if you understand that
00:14:38.95\00:14:41.51
and how humans react to
different types of stimulus
00:14:41.54\00:14:44.69
you could probably
make a good stab at it.
00:14:44.72\00:14:47.77
The reason we believe
this is the Bible hints that
00:14:47.80\00:14:50.70
in identifying United
States in Revelation 13
00:14:50.73\00:14:54.00
and we believe under inspiration
00:14:54.03\00:14:56.45
to the early
Adventist Ellen White
00:14:56.48\00:14:58.66
elaborated on that a little bit.
00:14:58.69\00:15:00.54
But I think we are
close enough to a crises
00:15:00.57\00:15:03.35
potential crises
time to extrapolate.
00:15:03.38\00:15:05.98
We can see under
a national emergency
00:15:06.01\00:15:09.34
where people
fear for their lives,
00:15:09.37\00:15:11.01
fear for the
survival of the country
00:15:11.04\00:15:13.30
and you mentioned Eisenhower
where you are dealing with a,
00:15:13.33\00:15:18.20
you know,
communist secular or other.
00:15:18.23\00:15:20.70
It's pretty easy dynamic to
say we are a Christian nation,
00:15:20.73\00:15:25.22
we want to do this and
you acknowledge the country
00:15:25.25\00:15:28.32
and Christianity generally
and if you don't go along
00:15:28.35\00:15:30.58
with this agenda
you are now a tarter
00:15:30.61\00:15:33.74
and an anti American and
someone as the Bible says
00:15:33.77\00:15:36.26
that better to wipe you
off the face of the planet
00:15:36.29\00:15:38.75
and that the
nation should perish.
00:15:38.78\00:15:40.96
I got into this quickly
00:15:40.99\00:15:42.11
and time is going
by but stay with us
00:15:42.14\00:15:44.52
and we continue this discussion.
00:15:44.55\00:15:46.22
Liberty Insider talking about
prophecy and religious freedom.
00:15:46.25\00:15:50.39