Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Orlan Johnson
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000261A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is a program brining you news, views, up-to-dates 00:27 and analysis of religious liberty events 00:30 in the United States and around the world. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:36 And my guest on the program is Orlan Johnson. 00:40 Here we go-- I've introduced you before. 00:43 Public Affairs and Religious Liberty director 00:45 for the North American division 00:47 of the Seventh-day Adventist church. 00:48 That would be, yeah. 00:49 Lawyer, what else can I-- man about town-- 00:55 no, and I hope a good friend. 00:58 And I've appreciated your comments in the past. 01:01 Let's talk about something that I know, 01:04 we've both been involved in this at general conference 01:07 at our head quarters, general conference committee on-- 01:10 if you get the exact title prosecuted members 01:12 of something of that-- 01:13 Yeah, defensive prosecuted member. 01:15 Defending prosecuted members and for quite a long time 01:19 that committee has been dealing with a great now success story. 01:23 Seventh-day Adventist was in jail 01:27 essentially for his faith in Togo. 01:29 Yeah. Pastor Antonio Monteiro. 01:32 Pastor Monteiro was his name. Yeah, what is that told you. 01:35 What about your take on that story? 01:36 You know, its told me a couple of things. 01:39 One is the idea that sometimes you think 01:43 the world understands who we are as Adventists 01:46 that more than we think. 01:48 It also reminded me 01:50 of also the story of how even in the midst 01:53 of probably a worse situation you can be 01:56 and that God is still there 01:57 and still has a job for you to do 01:59 and I think the combination 02:01 of both of those aspects of the story 02:03 have really impacted me in a very strong way. 02:07 You know, Pastor Monteiro was obviously an individual 02:10 who had been serving someone 02:12 who ended up accusing him of engaging 02:15 in some wrong doing and then all of a sudden-- 02:16 Well, it was a huge wrong doing. 02:18 It was the death of that nine young women 02:20 who apparently their blood had been drained 02:23 and it was said for some animistic ritual. 02:27 Yeah. 02:28 And, and it was something that was a severe tragedy. 02:31 It was not only local but their national news 02:35 and became worldwide news and we have one of our own 02:39 Seventh-day Adventist pastors as well as other members 02:42 that were drawn into this controversy 02:44 and found themselves in prison as a result of it. 02:47 And as the trial or at least the-- 02:50 in the early past before there was a trial 02:52 but as the issue blew up quickly 02:54 there was misinformation and prejudicial statements on-- 02:57 even on television programs against Adventist 03:00 and Christians and Togo is not a majority Christian country, 03:05 as I remember 25% Christian, 25% Islam and the rest 03:09 combination of animist and they knew nothing. 03:12 Yeah, I think in terms of, you know, we talk about 03:15 what we are known as, as Adventist instead 03:17 I think many of us and... both here 03:20 and across the world probably thought, 03:22 well, you know, once they realize 03:24 that this was a Seventh-day Adventist minister 03:26 that we don't engage in all of these blood rituals 03:29 and things of that nature and it would have 03:30 brought everything to a screeching halt. 03:33 And then we come to find out, 03:34 you know, they really don't know, 03:35 that, that's not who we are 03:38 and that I think was a bit of shock 03:40 to a lot of us to know 03:42 that you know what, we thought 03:43 that maybe they saw us little bit different, 03:45 we had more exposure to who we were 03:48 and I think that was also part of the struggle of, 03:51 of kind of fighting through all of this 03:52 and as you mentioned just trying to get 03:54 to a trial was critical. 03:55 And then by God's grace we actually one day 03:57 actually got to have a trial to deal. 04:00 And he was exonerated. 04:03 He never really seem to be evidence 04:05 in the classic sense against him. 04:07 It was one person's unsupported statement 04:11 that he retracted and beyond that really nothing. 04:14 That was pretty clear there wasn't a lot of evidence 04:16 but I think sometimes as you would see in Togo 04:18 as you see in other places 04:20 when their crimes that have been committed 04:22 everyone is looking for somebody 04:24 that has to pay the price or be the scapegoat 04:27 for those crimes that have been committed 04:28 and I think Pastor Monteiro and Bruno Amah 04:31 and some of the others were kind of caught 04:33 into that particular blame. 04:34 Adventist laymen that was also accused of the same thing. 04:36 Yeah. 04:38 I watched some footage 04:39 from a recent film on Nelson Mandela 04:42 which was very closely by stand history 04:44 and of course he was sent 04:45 to prison for-- was it 27 years? 04:48 Twenty seven years. 04:49 Twenty seven years for his-- and he was acting illegally. 04:53 I mean, he was part of resistance movement 04:55 but when he was brought to trial 04:56 and the judge brought the verdict 04:58 in they expected the death penalty 05:00 and I think it was an exact quote he says, 05:03 you know, we are not an uncivilized country. 05:05 So in front of the world I'm not gonna execute you guys. 05:08 You have life imprisonment. Life in prison. 05:09 Well, that reminded me of pastor Amah. 05:12 Yeah. 05:13 Here as you say there was a search 05:14 for culprits or scapegoats 05:19 and Pastor Monteiro they had nothing on him. 05:21 He was released and they had essentially nothing on Amah 05:25 but they are not an uncivilized country 05:28 but I think something very uncivilized has been done 05:31 to this layperson who at the moment 05:34 is languishing in jail 05:35 and we haven't given on him yet. 05:36 That's a great thing. 05:37 I see in this committee our church will defend him. 05:40 Not that we have power and the classic sense 05:43 but we have moral suasion and we will, we will continue. 05:47 But someone else on that committee too that impressed me 05:51 that was brought before the committee. 05:52 A young man in Pakistan or what? 05:54 Yeah. Yeah. 05:56 What was his crime? 05:57 Well, I think his crime was simply talking 06:00 about his Christian belief and being termed 06:02 as being blasphemies in some way. 06:05 And that you know, but self 06:06 and Pakistan was enough to allow 06:08 this individual to find himself in jail 06:11 and for him to be you know, 06:14 convicted for at life imprison as a result of it. 06:18 And its' the classic case of violation 06:21 of ones religious rights in a way 06:23 that we can't even conceptualize 06:26 sometimes in the western world 06:27 but this is the reality of what's happening 06:30 across the globe and that something 06:32 that we as Christians need to understand. 06:34 We have to fight the fight for everyone everywhere 06:36 because that makes the difference. 06:37 You know, the western world is not like 06:40 that part of the world right now 06:41 but we've been through those years 06:43 and not just on religion. 06:44 Remember in the US 06:45 under the Alien and Sedition Acts 06:48 just to speak against the president 06:51 was a capital crime. 06:53 We don't know that they ever executed anyone but it was. 06:55 Yeah. 06:56 And during World War II, I think it was in the US 07:01 it was an offence to-- 07:04 and the wording was sort of strange 07:06 to speak disparagingly in US. 07:08 Yeah. 07:09 I mean, you know, there are so many 07:11 what I would call rules, regulations 07:13 and laws and statutes 07:15 that come into place that many of us aren't even aware of 07:19 and we have to spend so much time 07:21 trying to understand the world in which we live but, 07:24 but the interesting thing I'm still blown away 07:26 by even Pastor Monteiro's testimony 07:29 is despite the fact that he was in jail 07:31 for two and half years for something he did not commit 07:34 and clearly was not involved. 07:36 The impact that he had in the prison 07:38 was witnessing was phenomenal. 07:41 And when you hear his testimony 07:43 and the questions asked 07:44 well, would you do anything differently, 07:46 would you like to seen a difference? 07:48 His view is well, that's where God 07:50 wanted me to be in that particular vineyard 07:52 at that time and I'm okay with that. 07:54 And to me that's just a powerful statement 07:57 in this story that really knocks over. 07:59 Oh, makes you think 08:00 and this is the second time around for me 08:02 because we had another case 08:04 that 15 years ago with Pastor Alexander 08:11 in Sri Lanka and he was-- 08:14 we thought he was gonna be executed 08:15 on trial for terrorism. 08:17 Really because he was a Christian in a place 08:19 and the Tamil in a country where there is a civil war 08:22 between the two ethnic groups and Christianity on the outs. 08:25 And he was in jail for two years, 08:27 raised up a church of 60 members in the prison 08:30 and he said the same thing. 08:31 He says, no I believe 08:32 that God wanted me to be there. 08:33 Yeah. 08:34 And in fact, he didn't want to be released initially 08:37 and agreed to when another pastor imprisoned 08:41 and was able to carry on the work. 08:43 I mean, it was amazing 08:44 when you saw the prison guards that were waving 08:46 at Pastor Monteiro when he was leaving 08:49 and they clearly respected he gone out well. 08:53 He was there and I mean, 08:55 he came home basically to a hero's welcome. 08:59 And the impact that his story is probably having 09:03 a worldwide basis or in particular in his, 09:06 you know, section of the world where he lives 09:07 I think its phenomenal 09:09 and probably would not have happened 09:10 but for the unbelievably harsh circumstances 09:14 that he was in. 09:15 But sometimes its a reminder 09:17 that you know, sometimes the Lord knows 09:19 that you are the person that has to afford it to, 09:21 to be able to withstand something 09:23 that can actually make a difference in his world. 09:25 And I think Pastor Monteiro to me 09:27 is an unbelievable testimony. 09:28 Well, Paul said, my grace is sufficient for the-- 09:30 Absolutely. 09:31 So if we trust in God, 09:33 He will empower us to do what He's asked us to do. 09:36 Yeah, but it still reminds these two 09:37 that the world is dangerous place. 09:39 Very dangerous place. And the world is always-- 09:42 And not just over there I believe even western society 09:46 is deeply antithetical to committed truth, 09:50 deeply committed faith. 09:51 And you will be seen as the other 09:54 and while we are not hedged about 09:57 by trouble some laws as much low 09:59 when the cops stops here, 10:01 they start looking at your tail light, 10:02 you tire, they can almost pluck anything out of the book 10:05 somewhere to get you if they want to. 10:07 Yeah. Yeah. 10:08 But the laws are not usually applied that way. 10:10 But even in this country in the United States 10:13 I think the society is deeply uncongenial 10:17 to a truly dedicated Christian 10:19 who will not compromise on principle. 10:21 Well, I mean, we have to be cautions in our view 10:24 even in the United States where we believe that, 10:26 you know, our religion is a critical part of who we are, 10:30 you know, one nation under guard 10:32 and but at the end of the day we also need to understand 10:35 that the changes that happen and the laws that get created 10:39 so rarely are based on religious conversations 10:42 and its something usually be expedient or political. 10:46 The same thing that we saw hundreds of years ago 10:49 in other places will be the same thing that we will see 10:51 well, one day we will wake up and at a flip of a coin 10:55 we will be wondering where did this all come from 10:57 and its because its not simply about some nice theoretically 11:01 and esoteric conversation of religion 11:03 but its the fact that at some point 11:05 the world is gonna change and prophesies made clear 11:07 that's gonna be the case. 11:08 Absolutely. 11:10 You are almost talking in code. I know what you say. 11:13 But one thing that's coming out again from this committee to me 11:19 and its my reading of history as well of seeing 11:22 these particular cases, while it seems no encouraging 11:28 but its inspiring to read a case of someone 11:30 because they were Christian because they read the Bible, 11:34 they were then put against a wall 11:37 or on a stake and burned or whatever 11:39 its not usually that one dimensional. 11:41 Right. 11:43 The underlying antipathy or reason maybe 11:47 because there are Christian or because they are Adventist 11:49 or because they are Jehovah's Witnesses whatever it is 11:53 but usually the excuse is some 11:55 they are like they said to Jesus, 11:57 or to Elijah the troubler in Israel. 11:59 Right. 12:00 They don't fit with the thing 12:02 so the fact that Monteiro was rounded up 12:06 as a possible criminal on a horrible murder 12:09 I don't think it takes it away 12:11 from religious liberty thing at all 12:12 because its very plain that underneath of all 12:15 it was this misunderstanding 12:17 and even prejudice against his faith. 12:19 Yeah, and I think that's one of the things 12:21 that we have to understand 12:22 it's not always gonna be the grand issues 12:24 or the grand stands that make it different. 12:27 Its still small new ones interpretations 12:30 that individuals will be able to utilize 12:32 that we work against us 12:34 and one of the strengths of laws 12:37 is that they have a tremendous amount of flexibility 12:39 but one of the frightening things about the laws 12:42 is that they have a tremendous amount of flexibility. 12:44 Yeah. And so-- 12:47 Or lot of digressing will be applied by someone with a view 12:51 that could rather be favorable 12:52 or incredible negative towards you. 12:54 And depending on what political staff 12:56 is in charge at any one at any point given time 12:59 or what Supreme Court decision may come down 13:01 based on who the justice maybe 13:03 all of a sudden the same laws that you thought 13:06 were there to protect you are now the same laws 13:08 are starting to strangle you. 13:09 Well, I was-- before you started in North America 13:13 but I remember John Graz, 13:15 General Conference leader was fired up for long time. 13:17 We had articles about France 13:20 and they had a government at that time 13:22 and director of CULTs who had a view point 13:27 that certain religions were not acceptable in the society 13:30 so they deregistered them. 13:31 They didn't need to prosecute deregistered religion. 13:34 Right. 13:35 The most common things of life that we take for granted 13:38 is just the way of doing business in society 13:40 but then use against them. 13:41 Building permits were hard to come by, 13:44 they would be more common audits, 13:45 they will not get tax deductibility, 13:48 the parents would be required to send them to school 13:51 rather than giving exemption on their holidays and so on. 13:52 Yeah. Yeah. 13:53 So all put together that's prosecution. 13:56 We see these-- 13:57 And the arm of the law can be very efficient 13:59 in just making it impossible 14:02 to keep to your faith or practice it. 14:04 And that's why it's so important 14:05 that we not just simply look 14:07 for these big sings in the skies 14:09 that something is going wrong. 14:11 I mean, I've lived in 14:12 and worked in jurisdictions where there are now 14:14 more auditoriums and building new churches 14:16 because they simple know 14:17 that the land is not gonna be taxable. 14:19 Yeah, that's troublesome. All of that's there. 14:21 We'll be back after a break to continue this, 14:23 this lot of hidden then what was just said. 14:26 Stay with us. |
Revised 2014-12-17