Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program brining
you news, views, up-to-dates
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and analysis of
religious liberty events
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Orlan Johnson.
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Here we go-- I've
introduced you before.
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Public Affairs and
Religious Liberty director
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for the North American division
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of the
Seventh-day Adventist church.
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That would be, yeah.
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Lawyer, what else
can I-- man about town--
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no, and I hope a good friend.
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And I've appreciated
your comments in the past.
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Let's talk about
something that I know,
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we've both been involved
in this at general conference
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at our head quarters, general
conference committee on--
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if you get the exact
title prosecuted members
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of something of that--
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Yeah, defensive
prosecuted member.
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Defending prosecuted members
and for quite a long time
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that committee has been dealing
with a great now success story.
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Seventh-day
Adventist was in jail
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essentially for
his faith in Togo.
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Yeah. Pastor Antonio Monteiro.
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Pastor Monteiro was his name.
Yeah, what is that told you.
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What about your
take on that story?
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You know, its told
me a couple of things.
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One is the idea
that sometimes you think
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the world understands
who we are as Adventists
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that more than we think.
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It also reminded me
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of also the story of
how even in the midst
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of probably a worse
situation you can be
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and that God is still there
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and still has a
job for you to do
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and I think the combination
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of both of those
aspects of the story
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have really impacted
me in a very strong way.
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You know, Pastor Monteiro
was obviously an individual
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who had been serving someone
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who ended up
accusing him of engaging
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in some wrong doing
and then all of a sudden--
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Well, it was a huge wrong doing.
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It was the death of
that nine young women
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who apparently their
blood had been drained
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and it was said for
some animistic ritual.
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Yeah.
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And, and it was something
that was a severe tragedy.
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It was not only local
but their national news
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and became worldwide news
and we have one of our own
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Seventh-day Adventist
pastors as well as other members
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that were drawn
into this controversy
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and found themselves in
prison as a result of it.
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And as the trial
or at least the--
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in the early past
before there was a trial
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but as the issue blew up quickly
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there was misinformation
and prejudicial statements on--
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even on television
programs against Adventist
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and Christians and Togo is not
a majority Christian country,
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as I remember 25% Christian,
25% Islam and the rest
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combination of
animist and they knew nothing.
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Yeah, I think in terms
of, you know, we talk about
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what we are known
as, as Adventist instead
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I think many of
us and... both here
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and across the
world probably thought,
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well, you know,
once they realize
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that this was a
Seventh-day Adventist minister
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that we don't engage in
all of these blood rituals
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and things of that
nature and it would have
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brought everything
to a screeching halt.
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And then we come to find out,
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you know, they
really don't know,
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that, that's not who we are
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and that I think
was a bit of shock
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to a lot of us to know
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that you know what, we thought
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that maybe they saw
us little bit different,
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we had more
exposure to who we were
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and I think that was
also part of the struggle of,
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of kind of
fighting through all of this
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and as you
mentioned just trying to get
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to a trial was critical.
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And then by God's
grace we actually one day
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actually got to
have a trial to deal.
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And he was exonerated.
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He never really
seem to be evidence
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in the classic
sense against him.
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It was one person's
unsupported statement
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that he retracted and
beyond that really nothing.
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That was pretty clear
there wasn't a lot of evidence
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but I think sometimes
as you would see in Togo
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as you see in other places
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when their crimes
that have been committed
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everyone is looking for somebody
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that has to pay the
price or be the scapegoat
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for those crimes
that have been committed
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and I think Pastor
Monteiro and Bruno Amah
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and some of the
others were kind of caught
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into that particular blame.
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Adventist laymen that was
also accused of the same thing.
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Yeah.
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I watched some footage
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from a recent
film on Nelson Mandela
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which was very
closely by stand history
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and of course he was sent
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to prison for-- was it 27 years?
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Twenty seven years.
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Twenty seven years for his--
and he was acting illegally.
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I mean, he was part
of resistance movement
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but when he was brought to trial
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and the judge
brought the verdict
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in they expected
the death penalty
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and I think it was
an exact quote he says,
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you know, we are not
an uncivilized country.
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So in front of the world
I'm not gonna execute you guys.
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You have life
imprisonment. Life in prison.
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Well, that
reminded me of pastor Amah.
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Yeah.
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Here as you say
there was a search
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for culprits or scapegoats
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and Pastor Monteiro
they had nothing on him.
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He was released and they
had essentially nothing on Amah
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but they are not
an uncivilized country
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but I think something
very uncivilized has been done
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to this
layperson who at the moment
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is languishing in jail
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and we haven't given on him yet.
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That's a great thing.
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I see in this committee
our church will defend him.
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Not that we have
power and the classic sense
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but we have moral suasion
and we will, we will continue.
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But someone else on that
committee too that impressed me
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that was brought
before the committee.
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A young man in Pakistan or what?
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Yeah. Yeah.
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What was his crime?
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Well, I think his
crime was simply talking
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about his Christian
belief and being termed
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as being
blasphemies in some way.
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And that you know, but self
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and Pakistan was enough to allow
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this individual to
find himself in jail
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and for him to be you know,
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convicted for at life
imprison as a result of it.
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And its' the
classic case of violation
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of ones
religious rights in a way
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that we can't even conceptualize
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sometimes in the western world
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but this is the
reality of what's happening
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across the globe
and that something
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that we as
Christians need to understand.
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We have to fight the
fight for everyone everywhere
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because that
makes the difference.
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You know, the
western world is not like
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that part of the world right now
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but we've been
through those years
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and not just on religion.
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Remember in the US
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under the Alien
and Sedition Acts
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just to speak
against the president
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was a capital crime.
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We don't know that they
ever executed anyone but it was.
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Yeah.
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And during World War
II, I think it was in the US
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it was an offence to--
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and the wording
was sort of strange
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to speak disparagingly in US.
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Yeah.
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I mean, you
know, there are so many
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what I would call
rules, regulations
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and laws and statutes
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that come into place that
many of us aren't even aware of
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and we have to
spend so much time
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trying to understand the
world in which we live but,
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but the interesting
thing I'm still blown away
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by even Pastor
Monteiro's testimony
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is despite the
fact that he was in jail
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for two and half years for
something he did not commit
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and clearly was not involved.
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The impact that
he had in the prison
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was witnessing was phenomenal.
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And when you hear his testimony
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and the questions asked
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well, would you do
anything differently,
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would you like to
seen a difference?
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His view is
well, that's where God
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wanted me to be in
that particular vineyard
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at that time and
I'm okay with that.
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And to me that's
just a powerful statement
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in this story that
really knocks over.
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Oh, makes you think
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and this is the
second time around for me
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because we had another case
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that 15 years ago
with Pastor Alexander
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in Sri Lanka and he was--
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we thought he
was gonna be executed
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on trial for terrorism.
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Really because he was
a Christian in a place
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and the Tamil in a country
where there is a civil war
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between the two ethnic groups
and Christianity on the outs.
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And he was in
jail for two years,
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raised up a church of
60 members in the prison
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and he said the same thing.
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He says, no I believe
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that God wanted me to be there.
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Yeah.
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And in fact, he didn't
want to be released initially
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and agreed to when
another pastor imprisoned
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and was able to
carry on the work.
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I mean, it was amazing
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when you saw the
prison guards that were waving
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at Pastor Monteiro
when he was leaving
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and they clearly
respected he gone out well.
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He was there and I mean,
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he came home
basically to a hero's welcome.
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And the impact that his
story is probably having
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a worldwide basis or
in particular in his,
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you know, section of
the world where he lives
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I think its phenomenal
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and probably
would not have happened
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but for the
unbelievably harsh circumstances
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that he was in.
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But sometimes its a reminder
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that you know,
sometimes the Lord knows
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that you are the person
that has to afford it to,
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to be able to
withstand something
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that can actually make
a difference in his world.
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And I think
Pastor Monteiro to me
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is an unbelievable testimony.
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Well, Paul said, my
grace is sufficient for the--
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Absolutely.
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So if we trust in God,
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He will empower us to do
what He's asked us to do.
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Yeah, but it
still reminds these two
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that the world
is dangerous place.
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Very dangerous place.
And the world is always--
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And not just over there I
believe even western society
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is deeply
antithetical to committed truth,
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deeply committed faith.
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And you will be
seen as the other
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and while we
are not hedged about
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by trouble some laws as much low
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when the cops stops here,
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they start looking
at your tail light,
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you tire, they can almost
pluck anything out of the book
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somewhere to get
you if they want to.
00:10:05.77\00:10:07.02
Yeah. Yeah.
00:10:07.05\00:10:08.11
But the laws are not
usually applied that way.
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But even in this
country in the United States
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I think the society
is deeply uncongenial
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to a truly dedicated Christian
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who will not
compromise on principle.
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Well, I mean, we have
to be cautions in our view
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even in the United
States where we believe that,
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you know, our religion is a
critical part of who we are,
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you know, one nation under guard
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and but at the end of the
day we also need to understand
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that the changes that happen
and the laws that get created
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so rarely are based on
religious conversations
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and its something usually
be expedient or political.
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The same thing that we
saw hundreds of years ago
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in other places will be
the same thing that we will see
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well, one day we will
wake up and at a flip of a coin
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we will be wondering
where did this all come from
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and its because its not simply
about some nice theoretically
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and esoteric
conversation of religion
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but its the fact
that at some point
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the world is gonna
change and prophesies made clear
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that's gonna be the case.
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Absolutely.
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You are almost talking in
code. I know what you say.
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But one thing that's coming out
again from this committee to me
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and its my reading of
history as well of seeing
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these particular cases,
while it seems no encouraging
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but its inspiring to
read a case of someone
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because they were Christian
because they read the Bible,
00:11:30.88\00:11:34.81
they were then
put against a wall
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or on a stake and
burned or whatever
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its not usually
that one dimensional.
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Right.
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The underlying
antipathy or reason maybe
00:11:43.48\00:11:47.54
because there are Christian
or because they are Adventist
00:11:47.57\00:11:49.81
or because they are Jehovah's
Witnesses whatever it is
00:11:49.84\00:11:53.45
but usually the excuse is some
00:11:53.48\00:11:55.81
they are like
they said to Jesus,
00:11:55.84\00:11:57.79
or to Elijah the
troubler in Israel.
00:11:57.82\00:11:59.90
Right.
00:11:59.93\00:12:00.96
They don't fit with the thing
00:12:00.99\00:12:02.42
so the fact that
Monteiro was rounded up
00:12:02.45\00:12:06.87
as a possible
criminal on a horrible murder
00:12:06.90\00:12:09.82
I don't think it takes it away
00:12:09.85\00:12:11.39
from religious
liberty thing at all
00:12:11.42\00:12:12.90
because its very
plain that underneath of all
00:12:12.93\00:12:15.46
it was this misunderstanding
00:12:15.49\00:12:17.35
and even
prejudice against his faith.
00:12:17.38\00:12:19.15
Yeah, and I think
that's one of the things
00:12:19.18\00:12:21.06
that we have to understand
00:12:21.09\00:12:22.67
it's not always
gonna be the grand issues
00:12:22.70\00:12:24.76
or the grand stands
that make it different.
00:12:24.79\00:12:27.43
Its still small new
ones interpretations
00:12:27.46\00:12:30.24
that individuals
will be able to utilize
00:12:30.27\00:12:32.66
that we work against us
00:12:32.69\00:12:34.36
and one of the strengths of laws
00:12:34.39\00:12:37.13
is that they have a
tremendous amount of flexibility
00:12:37.16\00:12:39.58
but one of the frightening
things about the laws
00:12:39.61\00:12:42.55
is that they have a tremendous
amount of flexibility.
00:12:42.58\00:12:44.70
Yeah. And so--
00:12:44.73\00:12:47.49
Or lot of digressing will be
applied by someone with a view
00:12:47.52\00:12:51.36
that could rather be favorable
00:12:51.39\00:12:52.62
or incredible
negative towards you.
00:12:52.65\00:12:54.36
And depending on
what political staff
00:12:54.39\00:12:56.23
is in charge at any
one at any point given time
00:12:56.26\00:12:59.19
or what Supreme Court
decision may come down
00:12:59.22\00:13:01.44
based on who the justice maybe
00:13:01.47\00:13:03.57
all of a sudden the
same laws that you thought
00:13:03.60\00:13:06.17
were there to protect
you are now the same laws
00:13:06.20\00:13:08.26
are starting to strangle you.
00:13:08.29\00:13:09.71
Well, I was-- before
you started in North America
00:13:09.74\00:13:13.79
but I remember John Graz,
00:13:13.82\00:13:15.73
General Conference leader
was fired up for long time.
00:13:15.76\00:13:17.96
We had articles about France
00:13:17.99\00:13:19.98
and they had a
government at that time
00:13:20.01\00:13:22.83
and director of
CULTs who had a view point
00:13:22.86\00:13:27.66
that certain religions were
not acceptable in the society
00:13:27.69\00:13:30.50
so they deregistered them.
00:13:30.53\00:13:31.91
They didn't need to
prosecute deregistered religion.
00:13:31.94\00:13:34.77
Right.
00:13:34.80\00:13:35.84
The most common things of
life that we take for granted
00:13:35.87\00:13:38.56
is just the way of
doing business in society
00:13:38.59\00:13:40.59
but then use against them.
00:13:40.62\00:13:41.94
Building permits
were hard to come by,
00:13:41.97\00:13:44.03
they would be
more common audits,
00:13:44.06\00:13:45.33
they will not get
tax deductibility,
00:13:45.36\00:13:48.58
the parents would be
required to send them to school
00:13:48.61\00:13:51.38
rather than giving exemption
on their holidays and so on.
00:13:51.41\00:13:52.79
Yeah. Yeah.
00:13:52.82\00:13:53.85
So all put
together that's prosecution.
00:13:53.88\00:13:56.40
We see these--
00:13:56.43\00:13:57.47
And the arm of the
law can be very efficient
00:13:57.50\00:13:59.72
in just making it impossible
00:13:59.75\00:14:02.72
to keep to your
faith or practice it.
00:14:02.75\00:14:04.17
And that's why it's so important
00:14:04.20\00:14:05.69
that we not just simply look
00:14:05.72\00:14:07.18
for these big sings in the skies
00:14:07.21\00:14:09.08
that something is going wrong.
00:14:09.11\00:14:11.02
I mean, I've lived in
00:14:11.05\00:14:12.37
and worked in jurisdictions
where there are now
00:14:12.40\00:14:14.32
more auditoriums and
building new churches
00:14:14.35\00:14:16.71
because they simple know
00:14:16.74\00:14:17.77
that the land is
not gonna be taxable.
00:14:17.80\00:14:19.51
Yeah, that's troublesome.
All of that's there.
00:14:19.54\00:14:21.30
We'll be back after a
break to continue this,
00:14:21.33\00:14:23.89
this lot of hidden
then what was just said.
00:14:23.92\00:14:26.95
Stay with us.
00:14:26.98\00:14:28.34