Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Orlan Johnson
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000259A
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00:21 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:23 This is the program that brings you news, 00:25 discussions views and analysis of religious liberty events 00:29 in the United States and around the world. 00:31 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine 00:35 and on the program my guest is, Orlon Johnson, 00:38 director of Public Affairs in Religious Liberty 00:40 for the North American Division of Seventh-day Adventist. 00:43 Well, I need more breath than I had for that one, 00:45 but it is an important job as we both know. 00:49 There's so many things we can talk about 00:52 but I want to lead off with something 00:53 that connects with another program we had, 00:56 where we were reminiscing about 00:58 going on a religious liberty bus tour, 01:00 and in Mount Pelee as we pulled into the hotel 01:03 I noticed next door 01:04 there was a big banner on a building, 01:06 and it says something the effect 01:08 as bring back our children. 01:11 Yeah, yeah. 01:12 You remember this? Oh, absolutely. 01:13 And it was also in the newspapers 01:15 but they, it was this rolling-- Daughters. 01:20 Daughters, and it first it gave me a bit of take 01:23 because as you remember they were like 01:25 200,000 young people gather around the river 01:28 watching a stunt bicycle tricks. 01:31 It were yeah, BMX racing, yeah. 01:33 Well, it was suicidal acts for the BMX bikes 01:37 for they are going of, of a plank 01:40 and spinning in the air and dropping from a bridge 01:42 right down to the river bay, and the sight I thought 01:44 may be these are college students statements, 01:46 then I remembered reading in the newspaper, 01:48 the latest on the abduction by Boko Haram in Nigeria of, 01:54 I think it was nearly 300 young people. 01:55 Yeah, 200 young ladies that were abducted, 01:59 they were going to school on their particular day, 02:03 and in the name of some type of political 02:06 or strange regime of activities 02:10 and conflict between Christians and Muslims 02:12 and just a number of reasons 02:15 that are really in my opinion are so nonsensical 02:17 and particular to bring children 02:19 into something like this, it's just unbelievable. 02:21 Well, that's may be what we need to talk about, 02:23 as westerners it all seems nonsensical 02:26 but these people are ready to kill, 02:28 not just abduct over this and Boko Haram, 02:31 Haram means forbidden, and I've never figured out 02:35 where the Boko comes from but I know what it means. 02:37 It means westernization, non Christian, 02:40 you know the corrupt west views are forbidden. 02:43 Yeah. 02:44 So they're violently a times pushing back 02:47 against what they see 02:49 is the western Christian corruption. 02:51 Yeah, it's hard to really in my opinion, 02:55 really understand, I've been to Nigerian 02:57 and the kind of the line the demarcation 03:01 between the northern region, 03:02 where the Muslims primarily exist 03:05 and the southern region 03:06 which it's more Christianity operations there. 03:09 It's just this unbelievable conflict in strive 03:13 and wondered how well we struggled with 03:15 when you deal with ethnic issues and tribal issues 03:19 and we find that at the end of all of this 03:22 somehow there's a religious connotation 03:24 that's wrapped into it 03:25 and it seems so strange sometimes 03:29 that you would take something in the name of religion, 03:31 that could end up doing so much harm 03:32 but the you think about all of the greatest-- 03:34 some of the greatest wars were "fall in the name of religion." 03:38 And hence many of them, in the name Christianity. 03:40 Absolutely. 03:41 Though it isn't just Islam, 03:43 I mean we've lately had a number of programs 03:45 about the global Islamic intolerance and its real, 03:50 but that's at this time in history, 03:51 but it has always been just Islam. 03:55 I think a lot about this 03:57 and I think even on this program, 03:59 I have indulge myself and my theory-- 04:02 I've read about you and again on this program. 04:04 It seems to me that in this present year, 04:07 even though I grew up and you did too, 04:11 now you little different as I used to be 04:14 but still our whole modern heroes 04:17 until the late 90's, 04:19 till the fall of the Berlin Wall 04:21 was under the cloud of the nuclear mushroom 04:24 you know we thought we were going under. 04:26 Yeah. 04:27 And it was-- democracy 04:29 and capitalism against communism, 04:31 but in reality now in this new century 04:35 this is post communist, you know China exits 04:40 but its stretched to call 04:42 a classic communism, its not Marxism. 04:45 So communism is degraded to capitalism is degraded 04:49 and I don't think in the US people 04:50 quite understand that, 04:51 but capitalism is a bad word to the rest of the world. 04:55 Imperialism is finished. 04:58 Pretty much all the isms are gone 05:01 and what do we left with? 05:02 It seems that and nationalism is gone. 05:05 Right. 05:06 In its classic sense, so what we have 05:08 in the world is a rapid evolution 05:10 I believe to a religious identity. 05:12 It's a sort of a, a bit of a slide 05:14 between a ethnic or a tribal 05:18 and religious identity, but religion trumps-- 05:20 Yeah, yeah. 05:21 And so the whole world is bring sort of a separated that way 05:27 and it means that religion is becoming is more toxic, 05:29 because it's an identity religion 05:31 rather than a spirituality we reached toward the divine. 05:35 Yeah, and to me it's really kind of turning 05:39 into something that's very different. 05:40 Its becoming also a generational issue 05:42 because as individuals may be my age 05:45 and older think about religion and more of a structured format 05:48 and what you do on a regular basis, 05:50 whether diet or health. 05:52 Younger people are looking at it 05:54 in a completely different way as well and-- 05:56 and I think part of it is-- 05:57 part of this whole Boko Haram situation, 05:59 where you have younger individuals 06:01 that are really almost like creating there own ideas of-- 06:06 well, this is how my religion ought to work 06:08 and this is how I'm gonna emphasize it. 06:11 And it just kind of flies into face is some of the-- 06:14 you know, formal what I would call 06:15 formalize structures that you would normally see. 06:17 But I tell you what really 06:19 is kind of hitting me with Boko Haram 06:20 and the idea of this abduction of this 100s of young ladies 06:24 is the way its has just kind of taken on this worldwide focus 06:29 and I'm always amazed Lincoln, 06:31 that I always wonder what is the issue, 06:33 what is the topic that will actually ring 06:35 the bell around the world? 06:37 And you never know, what it's gonna be 06:39 and sometimes you thinking know 06:40 what it's gonna be and then something happens. 06:41 But you don't know, but I do believe 06:43 that this would be very predictable 06:45 because I know in advertising or in PR these two things 06:49 that catch peoples attention, 06:50 when you do with children and animals. 06:52 That's true. That's true. 06:54 And this was guaranteed to hit a never with any society with-- 06:58 where you know the parents and society 07:00 this is an unthinkable thing. 07:01 You know even in other than the Nazis 07:04 they didn't seem to be restrain, 07:05 usually women and children are exempted from bullets 07:08 to the back of the head or bombing and so on. 07:13 But here young girls but what I need to say, 07:17 that this part of the tragedy here, 07:19 I mean abducting is bad enough 07:21 but it didn't really come out clearly until the end 07:23 that a good percentage of those girls 07:25 are Christian girls. 07:27 So they're not only been abducted, 07:28 they not only the roll proclamation 07:32 of the leaders saying, they're gonna sell them 07:33 into slavery and of the marriage. 07:35 They have been forcibly converted to Islam. 07:39 Yeah, yeah, and I mean 07:40 and you talk about violation 07:42 of ones religious liberty and ones freedom 07:44 and that is about as bad a poster operation for that 07:48 as you could imagine and-- and also at the end of the day 07:51 what are they open to accomplish with this? 07:53 And you know what are they hoping 07:55 to do other than to really kind of like elevate themselves. 07:58 And you know and-- for me its always been an issue 08:01 that you know when we see religious liberty violated 08:04 and in its worst day its really an elevation of self. 08:08 Somebody who is decided that my name 08:10 should be proclaimed in a great way 08:12 and I see that in the Boko Haram as well. 08:14 Yeah, agreed itself, its fairly easy for human beings 08:19 that don't keep their reality clear 08:21 and don't make their point of reference 08:23 the holy word and God himself 08:26 they can identify whether than sort of thing 08:28 that they are God's instrument. 08:29 Right, right. 08:31 And they self ordained and therefore anything is right 08:34 because you become God almost. 08:36 And I think that's what happening here, 08:38 they feel that judge jury and execution-- 08:40 Absolutely. 08:41 And they point a references rather skewed. 08:43 Yeah, yeah, there's no question about it. 08:45 And obviously in some of those countries 08:47 this type of religious fanaticism 08:49 appeals to the less educated, less sophisticated. 08:51 I mean this group are almost screaming it out, 08:53 we don't want westernization. 08:55 What they mean is they don't understand the world at large. 08:57 So you got narrow minded poorly educated people, 09:01 indulging their prejudice and it's aided 09:03 and abided by a religious paranoia. 09:08 Yeah, but I think one of the important thing 09:10 that I really see from this is making clear 09:13 from a worldwide prospective that freedom 09:16 that's being constrained in anyway 09:19 we all have to speak up. 09:20 The idea that you know, that you think 09:22 that somebody else's problem, 09:24 I mean one day it's trained on them 09:26 and the next day is trained on you. 09:27 Well, that's right, and Seventh-day Adventist 09:30 we know this that the key-- 09:32 if there's any secret litmus, it's a mixture of metaphor 09:38 which is anyway you can tell of something's correct 09:41 or incorrect on religious behavior in government, 09:43 church state relations whenever this 09:45 for so compulsion involved you know that is wrong. 09:48 Yeah. 09:49 Like we believe in the seventh day Sabbath, 09:51 but it would be wrong, wrong, wrong. 09:53 Suddenly this country mandated by Lord 09:55 everyone had to worship on the correct day. 09:57 Absolutely. It would still be wrong. 09:59 Yeah, and I think that's the thing 10:01 that we as Adventist have to really be cautious, 10:03 that simply because you have the truth 10:05 that's not mean that it should become a weapon 10:07 where you end up clubbing other individuals. 10:09 But you use it as a means 10:10 of being able to hopefully elevate them 10:12 and to teach them more about out God 10:14 and then hopefully allow the Holy Spirit 10:17 then to come in and to touch their lives 10:19 so allow the change really take place. 10:20 Absolutely, but this manifestation 10:23 of religious intolerances is too mild 10:25 the word to put to lot of the behavior by Islamist, 10:29 and of course not every Muslim 10:31 is even wanting to behave that way, 10:33 but the Islamist or the Salafist 10:34 and the extremist in Islam, 10:36 in many countries are really just going out 10:38 on a-- on a limb. 10:40 And when we talk about that we need to realize 10:42 it's not just in some dark corner 10:45 of trouble part of Nigeria 10:47 its even in the middle of the Europe. 10:48 Remember when we visited our church headquarter 10:51 there in Paris and they were telling us 10:54 about the work and so on. 10:56 They made some little nodding past to missions 11:01 to what the Islamic community. 11:02 Right. 11:03 But is it turned out this not much going on 11:06 and yet in France as a whole I think 11:08 it's about 11 percent, 11-12 percent Islamic, 11:13 but that's quite misleading because they don't live 11:16 in the country side by in large, 11:17 they live in the big cities and I wouldn't be surprised 11:20 if Paris itself as maybe 25 percent Islamic. 11:24 I mean it's hard to tell and I think the real concerned 11:27 that we in particular as Christians, 11:29 and in particular Seventh-day Adventist 11:31 understanding how we can make sure 11:33 that we're just bringing our information to people. 11:35 I mean you know we sometimes have off the opinion 11:39 that everyone knows who we are, 11:40 and they know what we are about 11:41 and in reality fewer and fewer people are really clear on 11:45 who we are as Adventist which is why I think the work 11:49 that we do in the area pf public affaires 11:51 and religious liberty is critical 11:52 not only an North American division, 11:54 but on a worldwide basis because the first thing 11:57 that causes someone who want to persecute you 11:59 is because they really don't know who you are. 12:01 Right, you are the other. You are the other person. 12:03 Yeah, and sticking with Islam I can make the same point. 12:09 And I remember what they told us, 12:11 did they tell us or I read it when I was in France 12:13 but those statistics are fairly unassailable 12:17 that is 10 percent or so is the whole 12:20 and about may be 25 percent in some of the major cities. 12:23 But much more important 12:24 is the religious activity and on-- 12:29 somebody told me or I read that 12:30 on a given weekend in France 12:35 there about twice as many people in mosques 12:38 that there are in Christian churches or cathedrals. 12:41 Well. 12:42 Now so that's a measure not of religious identity, 12:45 but religious activity. 12:47 Right. 12:48 And Seventh-day Adventists a church with the real agenda 12:52 we need to show through our activity who we are. 12:55 If we are active we'll be seen. 12:56 Right. 12:58 And we can't drift into what the nominal churches 13:01 and Roman Catholic church has this problem with a vengeance. 13:04 You can go into St. Peters, 13:06 you know remember on the tour you went into St. Peters, 13:09 you could go to a mass there, I have seen the mass there 13:11 it might be 100 people this is a massive cathedral. 13:15 Yeah. 13:16 So, yeah, to be identified 13:18 in some peripheral way of the religion 13:20 its better than not 13:21 but those that are really active, 13:23 that are worshipping, that are witnessing, 13:26 those are the ones that make the identity. 13:27 Oh, absolutely and I think that's why it's so important 13:30 even at what we do everyday that we go out 13:32 and realize that you're a witness 24 hours a day. 13:35 I mean you don't get a chance 13:36 to separate your religious activities 13:38 from your nonreligious activity. 13:39 But you get the chance, 13:40 but you shouldn't take the chance. 13:41 Well, yeah, and you shouldn't-- it makes you ineffective. 13:44 It makes you ineffective and it ends up in my opinion 13:47 really creating confusion for people who see you, 13:50 when they think that you know at this point of the day 13:52 as when I turned of my religion 13:53 and I become this other individual 13:56 and I don't think that's how Jesus will. 13:58 I think, Jesus was religious when He was a carpenter 14:01 as much as He was religious when He was in-- 14:03 Same as sanctimonious. No. 14:05 But I do think someone's you know the life of the party 14:08 and you know bruising it up and partying it up, 14:12 in the worse sense its a party and then there on the front pew 14:15 and on Sabbath are on Sunday there's a contradiction there. 14:18 So they're not consistent on one level 14:21 and they're also not speaking powerfully 14:24 or positively for their belief. 14:25 Right. 14:27 We've come to the end of the first half, 14:28 so we need to take a break, lot more to talk about, 14:31 stay with us we'll be back shortly. |
Revised 2015-02-12