Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you news,
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discussions views and analysis
of religious liberty events
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and on the program my
guest is, Orlon Johnson,
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director of Public
Affairs in Religious Liberty
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for the North American Division
of Seventh-day Adventist.
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Well, I need more
breath than I had for that one,
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but it is an
important job as we both know.
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There's so many
things we can talk about
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but I want to
lead off with something
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that connects with
another program we had,
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where we were reminiscing about
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going on a
religious liberty bus tour,
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and in Mount Pelee as
we pulled into the hotel
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I noticed next door
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there was a big
banner on a building,
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and it says something the effect
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as bring back our children.
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Yeah, yeah.
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You remember
this? Oh, absolutely.
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And it was also
in the newspapers
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but they, it was
this rolling-- Daughters.
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Daughters, and it first
it gave me a bit of take
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because as you
remember they were like
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200,000 young people
gather around the river
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watching a stunt bicycle tricks.
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It were yeah, BMX racing, yeah.
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Well, it was suicidal
acts for the BMX bikes
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for they are
going of, of a plank
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and spinning in the air
and dropping from a bridge
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right down to the river
bay, and the sight I thought
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may be these are
college students statements,
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then I remembered
reading in the newspaper,
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the latest on the abduction
by Boko Haram in Nigeria of,
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I think it was
nearly 300 young people.
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Yeah, 200 young
ladies that were abducted,
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they were going to
school on their particular day,
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and in the name of
some type of political
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or strange regime of activities
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and conflict between
Christians and Muslims
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and just a number of reasons
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that are really in my
opinion are so nonsensical
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and particular to bring children
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into something like
this, it's just unbelievable.
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Well, that's may be
what we need to talk about,
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as westerners it
all seems nonsensical
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but these people
are ready to kill,
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not just abduct
over this and Boko Haram,
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Haram means forbidden,
and I've never figured out
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where the Boko comes
from but I know what it means.
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It means
westernization, non Christian,
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you know the corrupt
west views are forbidden.
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Yeah.
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So they're
violently a times pushing back
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against what they see
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is the western
Christian corruption.
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Yeah, it's hard to
really in my opinion,
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really understand,
I've been to Nigerian
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and the kind of the
line the demarcation
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between the northern region,
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where the
Muslims primarily exist
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and the southern region
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which it's more
Christianity operations there.
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It's just this
unbelievable conflict in strive
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and wondered how
well we struggled with
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when you deal with
ethnic issues and tribal issues
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and we find that at
the end of all of this
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somehow there's a
religious connotation
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that's wrapped into it
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and it seems so
strange sometimes
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that you would take something
in the name of religion,
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that could end up
doing so much harm
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but the you think
about all of the greatest--
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some of the greatest wars were
"fall in the name of religion."
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And hence many of them,
in the name Christianity.
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Absolutely.
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Though it isn't just Islam,
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I mean we've lately
had a number of programs
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about the global Islamic
intolerance and its real,
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but that's at
this time in history,
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but it has
always been just Islam.
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I think a lot about this
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and I think
even on this program,
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I have indulge
myself and my theory--
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I've read about you
and again on this program.
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It seems to me that
in this present year,
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even though I grew
up and you did too,
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now you little
different as I used to be
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but still our
whole modern heroes
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until the late 90's,
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till the fall of the Berlin Wall
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was under the cloud
of the nuclear mushroom
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you know we thought
we were going under.
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Yeah.
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And it was-- democracy
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and capitalism
against communism,
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but in reality now
in this new century
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this is post
communist, you know China exits
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but its stretched to call
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a classic
communism, its not Marxism.
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So communism is degraded
to capitalism is degraded
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and I don't
think in the US people
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quite understand that,
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but capitalism is a bad
word to the rest of the world.
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Imperialism is finished.
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Pretty much all
the isms are gone
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and what do we left with?
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It seems that and
nationalism is gone.
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Right.
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In its classic
sense, so what we have
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in the world is
a rapid evolution
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I believe to a
religious identity.
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It's a sort of
a, a bit of a slide
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between a ethnic or a tribal
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and religious
identity, but religion trumps--
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Yeah, yeah.
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And so the whole world is bring
sort of a separated that way
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and it means that religion
is becoming is more toxic,
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because it's an
identity religion
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rather than a spirituality
we reached toward the divine.
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Yeah, and to me it's
really kind of turning
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into something
that's very different.
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Its becoming also
a generational issue
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because as
individuals may be my age
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and older think about religion
and more of a structured format
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and what you do
on a regular basis,
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whether diet or health.
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Younger people are looking at it
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in a completely
different way as well and--
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and I think part of it is--
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part of this whole
Boko Haram situation,
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where you have
younger individuals
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that are really almost like
creating there own ideas of--
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well, this is how my
religion ought to work
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and this is how
I'm gonna emphasize it.
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And it just kind of flies
into face is some of the--
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you know, formal
what I would call
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formalize structures
that you would normally see.
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But I tell you what really
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is kind of
hitting me with Boko Haram
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and the idea of this abduction
of this 100s of young ladies
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is the way its has just kind
of taken on this worldwide focus
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and I'm always amazed Lincoln,
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that I always
wonder what is the issue,
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what is the topic
that will actually ring
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the bell around the world?
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And you never
know, what it's gonna be
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and sometimes you thinking know
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what it's gonna be and
then something happens.
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But you don't
know, but I do believe
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that this would
be very predictable
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because I know in advertising
or in PR these two things
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that catch peoples attention,
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when you do with
children and animals.
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That's true. That's true.
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And this was guaranteed to hit
a never with any society with--
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where you know the
parents and society
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this is an unthinkable thing.
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You know even in
other than the Nazis
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they didn't seem to be restrain,
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usually women and children
are exempted from bullets
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to the back of the
head or bombing and so on.
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But here young girls
but what I need to say,
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that this part
of the tragedy here,
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I mean abducting is bad enough
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but it didn't really
come out clearly until the end
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that a good
percentage of those girls
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are Christian girls.
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So they're not
only been abducted,
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they not only
the roll proclamation
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of the leaders saying,
they're gonna sell them
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into slavery
and of the marriage.
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They have been
forcibly converted to Islam.
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Yeah, yeah, and I mean
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and you talk about violation
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of ones religious
liberty and ones freedom
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and that is about as bad
a poster operation for that
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as you could imagine and--
and also at the end of the day
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what are they open
to accomplish with this?
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And you know
what are they hoping
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to do other than to really
kind of like elevate themselves.
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And you know and-- for
me its always been an issue
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that you know when we see
religious liberty violated
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and in its worst day its
really an elevation of self.
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Somebody who is
decided that my name
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should be
proclaimed in a great way
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and I see that in
the Boko Haram as well.
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Yeah, agreed itself, its
fairly easy for human beings
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that don't keep
their reality clear
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and don't make
their point of reference
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the holy word and God himself
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they can identify
whether than sort of thing
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that they are God's instrument.
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Right, right.
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And they self ordained and
therefore anything is right
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because you become God almost.
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And I think that's
what happening here,
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they feel that
judge jury and execution--
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Absolutely.
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And they point a
references rather skewed.
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Yeah, yeah, there's
no question about it.
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And obviously in
some of those countries
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this type of
religious fanaticism
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appeals to the less
educated, less sophisticated.
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I mean this group are
almost screaming it out,
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we don't want westernization.
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What they mean is they don't
understand the world at large.
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So you got narrow
minded poorly educated people,
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indulging their
prejudice and it's aided
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and abided by a
religious paranoia.
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Yeah, but I think one
of the important thing
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that I really see
from this is making clear
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from a worldwide
prospective that freedom
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that's being
constrained in anyway
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we all have to speak up.
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The idea that you
know, that you think
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that somebody else's problem,
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I mean one day
it's trained on them
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and the next day
is trained on you.
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Well, that's right,
and Seventh-day Adventist
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we know this that the key--
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if there's any secret litmus,
it's a mixture of metaphor
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which is anyway you can
tell of something's correct
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or incorrect on religious
behavior in government,
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church state
relations whenever this
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for so compulsion
involved you know that is wrong.
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Yeah.
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Like we believe in
the seventh day Sabbath,
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but it would be
wrong, wrong, wrong.
00:09:51.15\00:09:53.24
Suddenly this
country mandated by Lord
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everyone had to
worship on the correct day.
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Absolutely. It
would still be wrong.
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Yeah, and I
think that's the thing
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that we as Adventist
have to really be cautious,
00:10:01.09\00:10:03.70
that simply
because you have the truth
00:10:03.73\00:10:05.84
that's not mean that
it should become a weapon
00:10:05.87\00:10:07.66
where you end up
clubbing other individuals.
00:10:07.69\00:10:09.48
But you use it as a means
00:10:09.51\00:10:10.87
of being able to
hopefully elevate them
00:10:10.90\00:10:12.53
and to teach them
more about out God
00:10:12.56\00:10:14.75
and then hopefully
allow the Holy Spirit
00:10:14.78\00:10:16.98
then to come in and
to touch their lives
00:10:17.01\00:10:19.07
so allow the
change really take place.
00:10:19.10\00:10:20.63
Absolutely, but
this manifestation
00:10:20.66\00:10:23.27
of religious
intolerances is too mild
00:10:23.30\00:10:25.33
the word to put to lot
of the behavior by Islamist,
00:10:25.36\00:10:29.49
and of course not every Muslim
00:10:29.52\00:10:31.50
is even wanting
to behave that way,
00:10:31.53\00:10:33.07
but the Islamist or the Salafist
00:10:33.10\00:10:34.96
and the extremist in Islam,
00:10:34.99\00:10:36.64
in many countries
are really just going out
00:10:36.67\00:10:38.72
on a-- on a limb.
00:10:38.75\00:10:40.84
And when we talk about
that we need to realize
00:10:40.87\00:10:42.69
it's not just
in some dark corner
00:10:42.72\00:10:45.11
of trouble part of Nigeria
00:10:45.14\00:10:47.32
its even in the
middle of the Europe.
00:10:47.35\00:10:48.38
Remember when we
visited our church headquarter
00:10:48.41\00:10:51.79
there in Paris and
they were telling us
00:10:51.82\00:10:54.57
about the work and so on.
00:10:54.60\00:10:56.72
They made some little
nodding past to missions
00:10:56.75\00:11:01.18
to what the Islamic community.
00:11:01.21\00:11:02.77
Right.
00:11:02.80\00:11:03.85
But is it turned out
this not much going on
00:11:03.88\00:11:06.28
and yet in France
as a whole I think
00:11:06.31\00:11:08.53
it's about 11
percent, 11-12 percent Islamic,
00:11:08.56\00:11:13.05
but that's quite misleading
because they don't live
00:11:13.08\00:11:16.47
in the country side by in large,
00:11:16.50\00:11:17.85
they live in the big cities
and I wouldn't be surprised
00:11:17.88\00:11:20.84
if Paris itself as
maybe 25 percent Islamic.
00:11:20.87\00:11:24.66
I mean it's hard to tell
and I think the real concerned
00:11:24.69\00:11:27.90
that we in
particular as Christians,
00:11:27.93\00:11:29.54
and in particular
Seventh-day Adventist
00:11:29.57\00:11:31.41
understanding
how we can make sure
00:11:31.44\00:11:33.22
that we're just bringing
our information to people.
00:11:33.25\00:11:35.84
I mean you know we
sometimes have off the opinion
00:11:35.87\00:11:39.16
that everyone knows who we are,
00:11:39.19\00:11:40.66
and they know what we are about
00:11:40.69\00:11:41.84
and in reality fewer and
fewer people are really clear on
00:11:41.87\00:11:45.84
who we are as Adventist
which is why I think the work
00:11:45.87\00:11:49.18
that we do in the
area pf public affaires
00:11:49.21\00:11:51.17
and religious
liberty is critical
00:11:51.20\00:11:52.54
not only an North
American division,
00:11:52.57\00:11:54.38
but on a worldwide
basis because the first thing
00:11:54.41\00:11:57.34
that causes someone
who want to persecute you
00:11:57.37\00:11:59.68
is because they really
don't know who you are.
00:11:59.71\00:12:01.46
Right, you are the
other. You are the other person.
00:12:01.49\00:12:03.39
Yeah, and sticking with
Islam I can make the same point.
00:12:03.42\00:12:09.06
And I remember
what they told us,
00:12:09.09\00:12:11.30
did they tell us or I
read it when I was in France
00:12:11.33\00:12:13.74
but those statistics
are fairly unassailable
00:12:13.77\00:12:17.78
that is 10
percent or so is the whole
00:12:17.81\00:12:20.00
and about may be 25 percent
in some of the major cities.
00:12:20.03\00:12:23.01
But much more important
00:12:23.04\00:12:24.93
is the religious
activity and on--
00:12:24.96\00:12:29.12
somebody told me or I read that
00:12:29.15\00:12:30.61
on a given weekend in France
00:12:30.64\00:12:35.02
there about twice as
many people in mosques
00:12:35.05\00:12:38.94
that there are in Christian
churches or cathedrals.
00:12:38.97\00:12:41.60
Well.
00:12:41.63\00:12:42.76
Now so that's a measure
not of religious identity,
00:12:42.79\00:12:45.64
but religious activity.
00:12:45.67\00:12:46.98
Right.
00:12:47.01\00:12:48.04
And Seventh-day Adventists
a church with the real agenda
00:12:48.07\00:12:52.56
we need to show through
our activity who we are.
00:12:52.59\00:12:55.21
If we are active we'll be seen.
00:12:55.24\00:12:56.61
Right.
00:12:56.64\00:12:58.04
And we can't drift into
what the nominal churches
00:12:58.07\00:13:01.74
and Roman Catholic church has
this problem with a vengeance.
00:13:01.77\00:13:04.81
You can go into St. Peters,
00:13:04.84\00:13:06.45
you know remember on the
tour you went into St. Peters,
00:13:06.48\00:13:09.58
you could go to a mass there,
I have seen the mass there
00:13:09.61\00:13:11.90
it might be 100 people
this is a massive cathedral.
00:13:11.93\00:13:15.08
Yeah.
00:13:15.11\00:13:16.53
So, yeah, to be identified
00:13:16.56\00:13:18.57
in some peripheral
way of the religion
00:13:18.60\00:13:20.34
its better than not
00:13:20.37\00:13:21.79
but those that
are really active,
00:13:21.82\00:13:23.74
that are worshipping,
that are witnessing,
00:13:23.77\00:13:26.04
those are the ones
that make the identity.
00:13:26.07\00:13:27.74
Oh, absolutely and I think
that's why it's so important
00:13:27.77\00:13:30.44
even at what we do
everyday that we go out
00:13:30.47\00:13:32.43
and realize that you're
a witness 24 hours a day.
00:13:32.46\00:13:35.25
I mean you don't get a chance
00:13:35.28\00:13:36.33
to separate your
religious activities
00:13:36.36\00:13:38.30
from your nonreligious activity.
00:13:38.33\00:13:39.39
But you get the chance,
00:13:39.42\00:13:40.46
but you
shouldn't take the chance.
00:13:40.49\00:13:41.52
Well, yeah, and you shouldn't--
it makes you ineffective.
00:13:41.55\00:13:44.48
It makes you ineffective
and it ends up in my opinion
00:13:44.51\00:13:47.42
really creating confusion
for people who see you,
00:13:47.45\00:13:50.20
when they think that you
know at this point of the day
00:13:50.23\00:13:52.39
as when I turned of my religion
00:13:52.42\00:13:53.81
and I become
this other individual
00:13:53.84\00:13:56.11
and I don't think
that's how Jesus will.
00:13:56.14\00:13:58.20
I think, Jesus was religious
when He was a carpenter
00:13:58.23\00:14:01.18
as much as He was
religious when He was in--
00:14:01.21\00:14:03.87
Same as sanctimonious. No.
00:14:03.90\00:14:05.58
But I do think someone's
you know the life of the party
00:14:05.61\00:14:08.43
and you know bruising
it up and partying it up,
00:14:08.46\00:14:12.03
in the worse sense its a party
and then there on the front pew
00:14:12.06\00:14:15.40
and on Sabbath are on Sunday
there's a contradiction there.
00:14:15.43\00:14:18.94
So they're not
consistent on one level
00:14:18.97\00:14:21.69
and they're also
not speaking powerfully
00:14:21.72\00:14:23.98
or positively for their belief.
00:14:24.01\00:14:25.65
Right.
00:14:25.68\00:14:26.97
We've come to the
end of the first half,
00:14:27.00\00:14:28.45
so we need to take a
break, lot more to talk about,
00:14:28.48\00:14:31.34
stay with us
we'll be back shortly.
00:14:31.37\00:14:32.98