Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Orlan Johnson
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000258A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is a program bringing you 00:26 up to date news, analysis, information 00:28 and perhaps even a personal opinion on religious liberty. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed. 00:34 I'm the editor of Liberty Magazine 00:36 and my guest on this program is Orlan Johnson, 00:39 Director of Public Affairs and Religious Liberty 00:42 for the North American Division. 00:44 Orlan, in another program, you and I reminisced a little 00:48 about a fabulous 2 weeks on a bus and I joked at the time, 00:53 I think it was in a chapel 00:54 about the wheels on the bus go round and round 00:56 because I read that to my kids 00:58 so many times when they were young, 01:00 but the wheels on the bus went round and round 01:02 and we went round and around Europe once to Italy, 01:07 Switzerland back to France ending up in France 01:11 and we were reminiscing about that. 01:13 You told me about high point. 01:15 I'm sure like me another high point that I only vaguely knew 01:19 about was to go to the city of Aigues-Mortais 01:24 for one of the, well, I'm sure it's a bad pronunciation 01:27 and I've looked even online 01:29 and I don't know what that name means, 01:31 but I think it means death by pneumonia 01:35 because that was not suppose 01:36 to be a very healthy environment. Right. Right. 01:37 And there in a wall city, it's part of wall city, 01:40 we visited the Tower of Constance. 01:43 That was really unbelievable to think about the idea 01:47 that someone would be putting a tower or prison 01:51 or incarcerate it for decade for something 01:54 that they specifically were not able to form. 01:56 What was it? 38 years, this young woman named Marie Durand. 01:59 Marie Durand, 38 years simply 02:02 because of activities of her brother. 02:04 She was a part of a Protestant family 02:07 and her brother was-- 02:09 I think the tour guides gave us the wrong idea. 02:11 They gave us the idea he was sort of a military commander 02:16 which he may have been, but I looked it up in encyclopedia 02:19 and he was a powerful preacher, he was known as the preacher. 02:22 He was a leader, a church leader. Absolutely. 02:24 And the authorities wanted him so they figured, 02:27 we'll put his sister in jail and entice him in. 02:30 Well, he didn't come and he was eventually killed 02:32 But they kept her. 38 years. Yeah. Yeah. 02:34 Yeah, and she was unwilling to do even the smallest things 02:37 that many of us may have thought. 02:39 Just sign the paper, just recant, just pretend, 02:43 that you are going along so that you can go back home 02:46 and she just decided absolutely not 02:48 under no circumstance would I be willing to do that 02:51 and was willing to put her life on the line 02:53 for decades in order to allow-- to allow to be served. 02:56 This is a leap. 02:57 My mind jumps to the things but if you notice 02:59 that even the U.S military doesn't hold you to the level 03:03 that people's faith held them during the times 03:06 of the inquisition and I think God holds us too. 03:09 You know, in captivity any number of US soldiers 03:12 under duress not by their own inclination 03:15 have signed away their loyalty 03:18 and said that America was a horrible power in there, 03:22 and the state will forgive them. 03:23 Yeah, because they understand non of those circumstances, 03:26 they know where your heart is but that thing, 03:28 that's really what's incredible that there are some people 03:31 that said, you know what? 03:32 She could say that and we would really know who she really is, 03:34 but she decided under no circumstances what I do so. 03:38 And do you remember there I mean-- 03:40 the tower was interesting, 03:41 it looked monolithic and incredibly solid 03:44 from the outside and inside it was like a bell tower. 03:48 It was very empty where the high parapet 03:53 or maybe that's not the right word, 03:55 but a high walkway that the guards would patrol 03:59 and look down on them 04:00 but inside this huge bell opened area, 04:03 the prisoners were just fending for themselves at a fire place 04:06 and then there was an air vent as I remember down the middle 04:10 and in the stone around that 04:12 there was something significant. 04:14 Yeah, that's where she carved that stone 04:16 and put in the word, craziest day that I'll resist to the end 04:21 and all the time they'd ask her we want you 04:24 to recount recant, recant, recant, 04:26 and her response was resist, resist, resist. 04:29 And I think that was probably the battle cry of that tower 04:33 and it was interesting inside the tower 04:35 because when you looked up on the walls, 04:37 you saw interesting carvings there 04:39 that almost gave the impression that 04:41 this was not intended initially to be a place 04:43 where it would be a prison 04:44 and I thought it almost looked almost too nice at first 04:47 but then once you strip everything out 04:50 and allow individual to just survive 04:52 on their own it's just incredible 04:54 that she was able to even survive as long as she did. 04:56 What I think it was because I don't remember 04:59 saying it elsewhere that was probably the keep. 05:01 You know the last resort for the Nantes 05:06 to defend the whole castle. 05:08 Well, it made sense only because of the way 05:10 it was kind of set up and there was a huge mote 05:12 that was there at for a while and as I was driving in, 05:16 I was trying to picture where the mote actually started 05:19 and ended and how they were actually 05:21 ending up protecting themselves and that fortress 05:24 but it was a very, very powerful story. 05:26 By the way talk about motes and so on. 05:30 On another trip to Europe, my wife had a great burden 05:34 that we stay in a castle 05:36 and she contacted the count of the castle 05:38 near Dijon in France and it had a mote full of water. 05:44 Really. 05:45 And a drawbridge that was down all the time. 05:47 Wow, interesting. 05:48 And the count to his credit let my kids take out the robot 05:53 and row through the lilies that was choped them up quite fierce 05:56 and I got that feel and you are right, 06:00 I don't remember the water at near 06:03 the Tower of Constance but there was a big canal nearby. 06:06 Yeah, yeah. And I think... 06:08 Which was probably the original access to the castle. 06:10 Yeah, yeah, and I think a lot of the roads 06:12 that were close by was probably parted 06:14 where that mote used to be but it was very powerful 06:17 just walking up to get to the place and looking up 06:21 and seeing this imposing tower and just, just imagining 06:24 what it must have been like to feel so isolated there 06:27 and probably thinking to yourself 06:29 that on any given day this may be where my life ends 06:32 and the willingness to still push forward 06:34 in the name of God is something that's worth dreaming about it. 06:37 As Paul says in Hebrews, for the, 06:40 you know, for our future hope. 06:43 Their faith saw them through 06:44 and that's what we need to keep in mind. 06:45 I lose it very easily as a Christian. 06:47 I think I should have a good hearing now 06:50 and God should bless me here in that. Right. 06:52 Plenty of people lived horrible lives, 06:54 depressing lives as far as human endeavor 06:57 but all in the hope and the promise of the life beyond. 07:01 Well, you know, I was just thinking this morning 07:03 that there are lot of places that you go 07:05 and you always have to remember 07:07 that this is not our home and this is not where we... 07:10 Sounds like a song. 07:11 This world is not my home. I'm just a passing through. 07:13 And that's the reality that we are really living a life 07:16 where we are looking to go to a much better place 07:19 and the understanding that your latter 07:21 is always gonna be better than your former 07:23 once you are connected with Jesus Christ. 07:25 I think it's one of the most important things 07:27 that we can know in the area of religious liberty. 07:29 Something that we need to, I'm looking at the time 07:34 and we got more time than I thought. 07:36 I hope we are not into the second half, 07:37 we need to take a break shortly. 07:38 But something else that's worth remarking on this tour, 07:43 it clicked with me that we went just in France, 07:47 we were at a seabed of Protestantism 07:51 and faith for the larger world. 07:53 Remember in Paris, we heard recounted 07:56 some of the history of the Huguenots, 07:58 the French Protestants who had become 08:01 a sizeable minority of the population 08:05 up getting close to the French Revolution 08:10 and become a political power. 08:12 And in fact Admiral Coligny was close to the king, 08:18 seen as a potential leader and of course that created 08:21 some problems with some people and you remember the story 08:25 about the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre. 08:27 Yeah. 08:28 That was a political religious ku deta. 08:32 Right. Right. Incredible. 08:34 It really was and it's a further reminder of 08:37 when you are living in a world where the political operation 08:40 and the religious operation is so intertwine 08:43 that you find yourself being really harmed 08:46 as a result of political decisions 08:48 that have absolutely nothing to do with religion. 08:50 And, you know, even as you saw different things 08:53 where you would have Henry IV 08:55 that would decide he would engage in a certain activity 08:57 that will protect Protestantism and in your mind you'd say wow, 09:00 that was a great thing 09:02 and in reality his mother was a Protestant 09:04 and he wanted her to have some place 09:05 where she can go and worship and not be persecuted. 09:08 Well, what I also picked up on the dialogue 09:11 about those the dynamic with the kings 09:13 and their retainers in the family 09:15 and who was sympathetic. 09:17 There's an upside and a downside to that 09:19 if today the ruler or the powers favor your faith 09:24 or your viewpoint that can be extremely negative 09:28 when the political situation flips. yeah. 09:30 You are now seen as an absolute enemy by the new regime. 09:34 Absolutely. 09:35 And so on public affairs which is 09:38 part of our religious liberty activity for the church. 09:42 I think there is a danger if we become too cozy with power. 09:45 I really believe we need to be witnessing to them 09:48 all the time, communicating our positions, 09:51 but not really trying to be at the table in the sense 09:55 that we are part of the power group we never should be. 09:58 Well, you know, and you and I have talked 10:00 a lot about this in our department. 10:02 We really focus more, just trying to make friends 10:04 before we need friends and making friends 10:07 does not mean that you always want to be in a position 10:09 where you can change the stream of water in any given moment, 10:14 but most of the time being available 10:16 so that you can be a source of influence and information, 10:19 I think it's a critical part of what we would like to deal at. 10:22 I don't think we get involved and try to go places 10:25 because we want to be part of what I'd call the machinery, 10:28 but I think it's important that we'd be there to make sure 10:30 that we can have a Christian experience 10:34 be may part of the conversation. 10:36 And at the end of the day sometimes 10:37 decisions are only made because of who you know 10:40 and if they have a little bit more information 10:41 about you then things can be a little bit different. 10:44 That's right. Absolutely. Now, we agree on this. 10:46 What I wanted to link with the Huguenots in France 10:50 St. Bartholomew's Day massacre was earlier 10:53 but then later around 1685 10:57 there was the revocation of the Edict of Nantes 10:59 which was an accommodation and allowance 11:02 for Huguenot activity in France, 11:05 but it was suddenly taken away 11:08 and the persecution rose again, pretty vicious. 11:11 And I love history period, but I like to see in history 11:16 what connection there is from one event to another 11:19 and there's clearly a broad line from the revocation 11:22 of the Edict of Nantes to the French Revolution. 11:24 Yeah. No question about it. 11:25 And a time of great turmoil for France 11:28 and indeed for all of Europe 11:30 and 1685 resonates a bit with me 11:33 because I know that, that was a period when massive amounts 11:37 or massive numbers of Huguenots headed to the new world 11:41 and... Canada but also in, 11:46 I'm trying to think how to define it, 11:48 the mid south of the US, they effected the lives there 11:52 and of course we eventually got that property. 11:54 Yeah. 11:56 Up through the Mississippi and at the same time 11:59 Oliver Cromwell's regime only a decade 12:02 or so different was collapsing 12:04 and all those, the puritans again 12:07 and a huge wave of them came to the US 12:08 so they have English Puritans and French Huguenots 12:12 in large numbers in total hundreds of thousands 12:16 of them coming to the new world. 12:19 There's no mystery that the United States 12:21 is so bathed in religious sentiment 12:24 and the political agenda sometimes that go with that. 12:27 Well, it's kind of interesting because at that time, 12:30 you know, Louis XVI comes in and does away 12:32 with Edict of Nantes and we talked about Protestantism 12:37 but really his concern was the rumor was 12:39 that Protestants believed in democracy 12:42 and they like the idea of voting. 12:44 And they like the idea of ... Well, that's true. 12:45 It's like, do you remember, 12:46 I may have mentioned on this program before 12:48 but there are certain jokes that tickle my fancy for ever, 12:51 probably like-- during the Vietnam War 12:56 one of the Smothers Brothers fathers-in-law Pat, 12:59 I'm forgetting his name now, but anyhow 13:02 he was a comedian too, he ran for president. 13:05 And he said he got up once as a candidate 13:10 and he says, rumors are being going around, 13:13 he says rumors of the very worst type, true ones. 13:18 And that was a true rumor about Protestants. 13:20 They did believe in democracy. Absolutely. 13:22 There is a bright line connection 13:24 between studying God's word 13:27 and seeing the riots, political riots of individuals. 13:31 We need to take a break. 13:33 We'll be back very shortly and stay with us. |
Revised 2014-12-17