Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program bringing you
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up to date news,
analysis, information
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and perhaps even a personal
opinion on religious liberty.
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My name is Lincoln Steed.
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I'm the editor
of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on this
program is Orlan Johnson,
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Director of Public
Affairs and Religious Liberty
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for the North American Division.
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Orlan, in another program,
you and I reminisced a little
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about a fabulous 2 weeks on
a bus and I joked at the time,
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I think it was in a chapel
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about the wheels on
the bus go round and round
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because I read that to my kids
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so many times
when they were young,
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but the wheels on the
bus went round and round
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and we went round and
around Europe once to Italy,
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Switzerland back to
France ending up in France
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and we were
reminiscing about that.
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You told me about high point.
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I'm sure like me another high
point that I only vaguely knew
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about was to go to
the city of Aigues-Mortais
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for one of the, well, I'm
sure it's a bad pronunciation
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and I've looked even online
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and I don't know
what that name means,
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but I think it
means death by pneumonia
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because that was not suppose
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to be a very healthy
environment. Right. Right.
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And there in a wall
city, it's part of wall city,
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we visited the
Tower of Constance.
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That was really unbelievable
to think about the idea
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that someone would be
putting a tower or prison
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or incarcerate it
for decade for something
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that they specifically
were not able to form.
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What was it? 38 years, this
young woman named Marie Durand.
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Marie Durand, 38 years simply
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because of
activities of her brother.
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She was a part of
a Protestant family
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and her brother was--
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I think the tour
guides gave us the wrong idea.
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They gave us the idea he
was sort of a military commander
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which he may have been, but
I looked it up in encyclopedia
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and he was a powerful preacher,
he was known as the preacher.
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He was a leader, a
church leader. Absolutely.
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And the authorities
wanted him so they figured,
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we'll put his sister
in jail and entice him in.
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Well, he didn't come
and he was eventually killed
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But they kept her.
38 years. Yeah. Yeah.
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Yeah, and she was unwilling
to do even the smallest things
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that many of us
may have thought.
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Just sign the paper,
just recant, just pretend,
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that you are going along
so that you can go back home
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and she just
decided absolutely not
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under no circumstance
would I be willing to do that
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and was willing to
put her life on the line
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for decades in order to
allow-- to allow to be served.
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This is a leap.
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My mind jumps to the
things but if you notice
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that even the U.S military
doesn't hold you to the level
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that people's faith
held them during the times
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of the inquisition and
I think God holds us too.
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You know, in captivity
any number of US soldiers
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under duress not by
their own inclination
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have signed away their loyalty
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and said that America was
a horrible power in there,
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and the state will forgive them.
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Yeah, because they understand
non of those circumstances,
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they know where your
heart is but that thing,
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that's really what's incredible
that there are some people
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that said, you know what?
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She could say that and we would
really know who she really is,
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but she decided under no
circumstances what I do so.
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And do you
remember there I mean--
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the tower was interesting,
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it looked
monolithic and incredibly solid
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from the outside and
inside it was like a bell tower.
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It was very empty
where the high parapet
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or maybe that's
not the right word,
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but a high walkway
that the guards would patrol
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and look down on them
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but inside this
huge bell opened area,
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the prisoners were just fending
for themselves at a fire place
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and then there was an air vent
as I remember down the middle
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and in the stone around that
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there was something significant.
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Yeah, that's where
she carved that stone
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and put in the word, craziest
day that I'll resist to the end
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and all the time
they'd ask her we want you
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to recount
recant, recant, recant,
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and her response was
resist, resist, resist.
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And I think that was probably
the battle cry of that tower
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and it was
interesting inside the tower
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because when you
looked up on the walls,
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you saw
interesting carvings there
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that almost gave
the impression that
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this was not intended
initially to be a place
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where it would be a prison
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and I thought it almost
looked almost too nice at first
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but then once you
strip everything out
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and allow
individual to just survive
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on their own
it's just incredible
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that she was able to even
survive as long as she did.
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What I think it was
because I don't remember
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saying it elsewhere
that was probably the keep.
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You know the last
resort for the Nantes
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to defend the whole castle.
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Well, it made sense
only because of the way
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it was kind of set up
and there was a huge mote
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that was there at for a
while and as I was driving in,
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I was trying to picture
where the mote actually started
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and ended and how
they were actually
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ending up protecting
themselves and that fortress
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but it was a very,
very powerful story.
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By the way talk
about motes and so on.
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On another trip to Europe,
my wife had a great burden
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that we stay in a castle
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and she contacted
the count of the castle
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near Dijon in France and
it had a mote full of water.
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Really.
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And a drawbridge that
was down all the time.
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Wow, interesting.
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And the count to his credit
let my kids take out the robot
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and row through the lilies that
was choped them up quite fierce
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and I got that
feel and you are right,
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I don't remember
the water at near
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the Tower of Constance but
there was a big canal nearby.
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Yeah, yeah. And I think...
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Which was probably the
original access to the castle.
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Yeah, yeah, and I
think a lot of the roads
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that were close by
was probably parted
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where that mote used to
be but it was very powerful
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just walking up to get
to the place and looking up
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and seeing this imposing
tower and just, just imagining
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what it must have been
like to feel so isolated there
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and probably
thinking to yourself
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that on any given day
this may be where my life ends
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and the willingness
to still push forward
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in the name of God is something
that's worth dreaming about it.
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As Paul says in
Hebrews, for the,
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you know, for our future hope.
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Their faith saw them through
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and that's what we
need to keep in mind.
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I lose it very
easily as a Christian.
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I think I should
have a good hearing now
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and God should bless
me here in that. Right.
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Plenty of people
lived horrible lives,
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depressing lives as
far as human endeavor
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but all in the hope and
the promise of the life beyond.
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Well, you know, I was
just thinking this morning
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that there are lot
of places that you go
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and you always have to remember
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that this is not our home
and this is not where we...
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Sounds like a song.
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This world is not my home.
I'm just a passing through.
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And that's the reality
that we are really living a life
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where we are looking to
go to a much better place
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and the
understanding that your latter
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is always gonna be
better than your former
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once you are
connected with Jesus Christ.
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I think it's one of
the most important things
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that we can know in the
area of religious liberty.
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Something that we need
to, I'm looking at the time
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and we got more
time than I thought.
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I hope we are not
into the second half,
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we need to take a break shortly.
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But something else that's
worth remarking on this tour,
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it clicked with me
that we went just in France,
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we were at a
seabed of Protestantism
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and faith for the larger world.
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Remember in
Paris, we heard recounted
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some of the
history of the Huguenots,
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the French
Protestants who had become
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a sizeable
minority of the population
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up getting close to
the French Revolution
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and become a political power.
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And in fact Admiral
Coligny was close to the king,
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seen as a potential leader
and of course that created
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some problems with some people
and you remember the story
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about the St.
Bartholomew's Day massacre.
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Yeah.
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That was a
political religious ku deta.
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Right. Right. Incredible.
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It really was and
it's a further reminder of
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when you are living in a world
where the political operation
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and the religious
operation is so intertwine
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that you find
yourself being really harmed
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as a result of
political decisions
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that have absolutely
nothing to do with religion.
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And, you know, even as
you saw different things
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where you would have Henry IV
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that would decide he would
engage in a certain activity
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that will protect Protestantism
and in your mind you'd say wow,
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that was a great thing
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and in reality his
mother was a Protestant
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and he wanted her
to have some place
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where she can go and
worship and not be persecuted.
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Well, what I also
picked up on the dialogue
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about those the
dynamic with the kings
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and their
retainers in the family
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and who was sympathetic.
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There's an upside
and a downside to that
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if today the ruler or
the powers favor your faith
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or your viewpoint that
can be extremely negative
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when the political
situation flips. yeah.
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You are now seen as an absolute
enemy by the new regime.
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Absolutely.
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And so on
public affairs which is
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part of our religious
liberty activity for the church.
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I think there is a danger if
we become too cozy with power.
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I really believe we
need to be witnessing to them
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all the time,
communicating our positions,
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but not really trying to
be at the table in the sense
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that we are part of the
power group we never should be.
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Well, you know, and
you and I have talked
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a lot about this
in our department.
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We really focus more,
just trying to make friends
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before we need
friends and making friends
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does not mean that you
always want to be in a position
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where you can change the stream
of water in any given moment,
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but most of the
time being available
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so that you can be a source
of influence and information,
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I think it's a critical part of
what we would like to deal at.
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I don't think we get
involved and try to go places
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because we want to be part
of what I'd call the machinery,
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but I think it's important
that we'd be there to make sure
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that we can have a
Christian experience
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be may part of the conversation.
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And at the end
of the day sometimes
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decisions are only
made because of who you know
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and if they have a
little bit more information
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about you then things can
be a little bit different.
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That's right. Absolutely.
Now, we agree on this.
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What I wanted to link
with the Huguenots in France
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St. Bartholomew's
Day massacre was earlier
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but then later around 1685
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there was the revocation
of the Edict of Nantes
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which was an
accommodation and allowance
00:10:59.89\00:11:02.63
for Huguenot activity in France,
00:11:02.66\00:11:05.28
but it was suddenly taken away
00:11:05.31\00:11:08.10
and the persecution
rose again, pretty vicious.
00:11:08.13\00:11:11.43
And I love history period,
but I like to see in history
00:11:11.46\00:11:16.48
what connection there is
from one event to another
00:11:16.51\00:11:19.55
and there's clearly a
broad line from the revocation
00:11:19.58\00:11:22.17
of the Edict of Nantes
to the French Revolution.
00:11:22.20\00:11:24.17
Yeah. No question about it.
00:11:24.20\00:11:25.73
And a time of
great turmoil for France
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and indeed for all of Europe
00:11:28.52\00:11:30.10
and 1685 resonates a bit with me
00:11:30.13\00:11:33.62
because I know that, that was
a period when massive amounts
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or massive numbers of Huguenots
headed to the new world
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and... Canada but also in,
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I'm trying to
think how to define it,
00:11:46.89\00:11:48.13
the mid south of the US,
they effected the lives there
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and of course we
eventually got that property.
00:11:52.58\00:11:54.94
Yeah.
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Up through the
Mississippi and at the same time
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Oliver Cromwell's
regime only a decade
00:11:59.93\00:12:02.27
or so different was collapsing
00:12:02.30\00:12:04.15
and all those,
the puritans again
00:12:04.18\00:12:07.08
and a huge wave of
them came to the US
00:12:07.11\00:12:08.84
so they have English
Puritans and French Huguenots
00:12:08.87\00:12:12.45
in large numbers in
total hundreds of thousands
00:12:12.48\00:12:16.52
of them coming to the new world.
00:12:16.55\00:12:19.05
There's no mystery
that the United States
00:12:19.08\00:12:21.28
is so bathed in
religious sentiment
00:12:21.31\00:12:24.44
and the political agenda
sometimes that go with that.
00:12:24.47\00:12:27.53
Well, it's kind of interesting
because at that time,
00:12:27.56\00:12:30.15
you know, Louis XVI
comes in and does away
00:12:30.18\00:12:32.85
with Edict of Nantes and
we talked about Protestantism
00:12:32.88\00:12:37.13
but really his
concern was the rumor was
00:12:37.16\00:12:39.96
that Protestants
believed in democracy
00:12:39.99\00:12:42.17
and they like
the idea of voting.
00:12:42.20\00:12:44.32
And they like the idea
of ... Well, that's true.
00:12:44.35\00:12:45.41
It's like, do you remember,
00:12:45.44\00:12:46.64
I may have mentioned
on this program before
00:12:46.67\00:12:48.25
but there are certain jokes
that tickle my fancy for ever,
00:12:48.28\00:12:50.97
probably like--
during the Vietnam War
00:12:51.00\00:12:56.13
one of the Smothers
Brothers fathers-in-law Pat,
00:12:56.16\00:12:59.03
I'm forgetting his
name now, but anyhow
00:12:59.06\00:13:02.21
he was a comedian
too, he ran for president.
00:13:02.24\00:13:05.11
And he said he got
up once as a candidate
00:13:05.14\00:13:10.95
and he says, rumors
are being going around,
00:13:10.98\00:13:13.15
he says rumors of the
very worst type, true ones.
00:13:13.18\00:13:18.59
And that was a true
rumor about Protestants.
00:13:18.62\00:13:20.84
They did believe in
democracy. Absolutely.
00:13:20.87\00:13:22.92
There is a
bright line connection
00:13:22.95\00:13:24.66
between studying God's word
00:13:24.69\00:13:27.31
and seeing the riots,
political riots of individuals.
00:13:27.34\00:13:31.76
We need to take a break.
00:13:31.79\00:13:33.44
We'll be back very
shortly and stay with us.
00:13:33.47\00:13:38.34