Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with guest Orlan Johnson,
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we were reminiscing about,
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you know, really a
life changing experience
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with 22 other
religious liberty leaders
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and a few relatives
and interested people,
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but by and large we were people
involved in religious liberty
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touring through three
countries of western Europe,
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but looking particularly
for evidence of faith
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and persecution I guess,
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but persecution showed the faith
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and you'd mentioned
the highlight for you
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was that second Sabbath in...
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Yeah, the church
of-- Museum of the Desert.
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Museum of the Desert. Yes.
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And this was
Albigenses as I remember.
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Absolutely.
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Which is another
phase of the reform movement
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that was
represented in Northern Italy
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by the Walt Denzy's.
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This was in southern France
not to far from Montpellier.
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Yeah.
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So, tell me more
about those because...
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Well.... It was a
rich experience...
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It really was and
when I first heard
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we gonna be having
church under the trees,
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I didn't know
exactly what that meant.
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Yeah.
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And actually it was probably
my wife's favorite as well
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and when we got
there and to see just the--
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just the set up,
it just felt like
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you were in this kind
of Shangri-La environment.
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You know, the
breeze was blowing nicely.
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All the chairs were set up,
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but then that was juxtaposed
against having a little burst
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with the radio board in there,
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so you kind of had a
chance to take a look
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at the past and the present,
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all combined into
one and just the idea
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that the people they were
just so happy to have us there.
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And there were, how many
would you think maybe 80, 90?
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I think about 80
or 90 were there.
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A French seventh-day
Adventist from several churches
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who'd gather together to hear
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some of the
religious liberty leaders,
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but to share food.
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The food was something... Yeah.
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We had what I would call
the French version of potluck
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which I thought
was quite interesting.
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We just had all kinds of
things to eat just quiches
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from every walk of
life you could imagine.
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Yeah, it wasn't
quite your bean stew
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and your scalloped potato.
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No, it's very different
and but what I also enjoy
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just the salad and the
fruits everything was so fresh,
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and I was speaking
with one of the ladies there
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and she said, "Well,
did you enjoy the cucumber."
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I said, "They were fabulous."
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She said, "Well, I grew
all of them in my backyard."
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And, you know, you
just had these view
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of just a different
lifestyle completely.
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It was idyllic.
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And of course made more idyllic
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by the fact that it
was a Seventh-day Sabbath
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and it was a sacred moment
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and I'm sure like
me you're impressed
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that first it
seemed sort of odd,
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they had a one of a
better word, a raised lectern.
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Yeah.
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That Dr. Graz stood up
there with Gilbert Wari,
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division president from
one of the African divisions.
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The eastern
division. He used to preach.
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Yeah.
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And wasn't really
meant for two people
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but they stood up so high
and I'm thinking sort of odd,
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you know, a little group
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but then they said that
this was an actual lectern
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I think that
would have been used.
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Absolutely.
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Some hundreds of years ago
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by people
worshipping in the same place.
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Well, you know, it was
the old vintage soup box look.
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Yeah.
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Where they were
much higher than us
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and actually I found
it kind of intriguing.
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It's always
interesting when you're hearing
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multiple
languages in one sermons
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well, and you go back and
forth and someone like myself
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who I spend time in Collonges
and I learned to speak French
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and I hadn't really
practiced in a long time.
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My mind was kind
of getting confused,
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almost going back and forth
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as to which one I
should really be listening to
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but it was quite a
powerful sermon by Gilbert Wari.
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I'll make a joke
with about John because,
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you know, I
appreciate him to the limit,
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he's been on this
program many times
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and he is a
fluent French speaker,
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that's his language and he
does pretty good in English,
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but I can tell he gets
his mind tied up in knots
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going between English and French
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and sometimes I'll tease him
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because he will mispronounce
a French word because...
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That's right. That's right.
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In his mind he is
moved from French to English
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so he's in English and trying
to say a French word to you
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but he thinks
it's an English word
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so he'd give a English spin.
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Sometime while Dr.
Wari was preaching,
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John's interpretation
might be slightly off
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and then he
would say it in French
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and then John
would say in English.
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Well, we all
had that experience.
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And we were going
back and forth a bit but...
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It's not uncommon
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and some of our
viewers may not have seen this,
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but different church leaders
traveling around the world
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often have to have translators.
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Absolutely.
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And almost for that exception
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as the translation is preceding,
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someone in the
audience will yell out.
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No, it's this.
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That was quite a--
that was quite powerful,
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but the sermon
was powerful. It was.
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It's one of the
best sermons I've heard.
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The opportunity was
just great to be there
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and I found that to be really
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one of the
highlights of the tour for me.
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In fact I need to
tell our viewers the topic.
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I remember very clearly
or the title it was not why.
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Like we're always
asking, you know, why Lord?
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Why this is happening to
me? Well, why should I do this?
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He says not why,
ask why not? Why not?
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Why shouldn't I live for
you? Why shouldn't I witness?
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Why shouldn't I put my
life on the line for faith?
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Right.
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To me that was an
inspiring tilt rum
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what we all struggle
with putting it on the upside.
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Well, I think
his sermon was almost
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a combination of our whole tour.
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Absolutely.
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That's the whole
purpose of why people did
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what they did, they came to
the conclusion that why not.
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I mean this is
not the mainstream.
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This is not what
everyone wants to do,
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but we believe it's important
for us to be different.
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Yeah.
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You went at the very beginning
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but I need to link it
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with something,
not the reformation.
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In some way the
tour was two parts,
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because when we were in
Rome, there was no reformation.
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Right. Right.
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We were talking about beginning
of pre-Christian history
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and then picking it up
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with the
Christians in the Colosseum.
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We went to the Colosseum
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and there is not strong evidence
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that was a common practice there
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as it was in other places
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but some gave their
lives in the Colosseum.
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And I remember
being taken by something
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I've seen several times before
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but never noticed
what was carved on it.
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The arch of Titus
just near the Colosseum.
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Okay. You been to Rome before.
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I have but I don't
remember the arch of Titus.
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You're like me. Okay.
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I knew about it and I remember
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walking under it
but until this tour--
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this is the value of this tour
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sort of made us pose
and think on this topic
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where a tourist normally
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in those places wouldn't see it.
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And they are carved
on the arch of Titus
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which was celebrating
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the victory of
Rome over Jerusalem.
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He got a carving of the soldiers
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brining the golden candlesticks
and the other furniture's.
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Well, the other
items of furniture
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from the temple in Jerusalem.
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You know, its kind
of-- Hebrew slaves.
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It's really
interesting that you mentioned
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that because I remember
reading one of the incidents
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that have to victory in Rome
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that whenever
the general came in
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that they always had a slave
that was actually inside the--
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his chariot with him
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and the idea
was to be a reminder
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that you know,
today you are victorious
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but tomorrow you
might be at the bottom here.
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And it was means of making sure
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that you
understood that no matter,
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how great your empire is
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there's somebody
waiting right behind the corner
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to take you off
the ledge as well.
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Well, Rome discovered that
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even though in many ways
was still living under the echo
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and the ghosts
of the Roman Empire
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certainly is a
empire loss since it's gone.
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It exists on best
definition in the rump form
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through the continuation
of the Roman Catholic Church
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because they, as they
will themselves tell you
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they inherited the political
mantle from the Roman Empire.
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Absolutely. Absolutely.
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Which is a more
legitimate claims
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on the donation of Constantine,
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you know, they were
given their land per say.
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They inherited the power
and so more legitimate than
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and even the gift of
Jesus to Peter, you know.
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Right.
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He was definitely
taping him for leadership
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but did he give
away all his power
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or purgatives I don't think so.
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I don't think so either.
00:08:06.09\00:08:07.12
But to me that was
a good introduction.
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We saw that
Christianity was nurtured
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in sacrifice and persecution
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and then we jump
forward where you picked it up
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clearly in Italy and
France and Switzerland
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on the great reformers
a long way down the story
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where faith had been
carried on but not a true faith.
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Right. Right.
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And of course, you know,
we all have that problem,
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I don't know about your life.
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You know, I go through a
lot of the motions of faith
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and I mean well
but its pretty easy
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for the sort of deteriorate
00:08:37.16\00:08:38.47
but you need to
go back to the Bible
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and Great Controversy
and sharpen yourself.
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And I think most
Christians if you ask them
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if they have faith they
would tell you absolutely
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but truth be told
most Christians hope
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they never have to exhibit that
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and they hope they never have
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to really live
the life of faith.
00:08:50.77\00:08:52.45
And I think in
particular when I came a board
00:08:52.48\00:08:54.81
and we got to
Geneva and you start to go
00:08:54.84\00:08:56.71
and see that
reformation wall and--
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That's what I was
wanting to bring up
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in the little time left.
00:09:00.55\00:09:01.65
And so-- Didn't
that impress you--
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in a better relief
there larger than life?
00:09:04.80\00:09:07.97
These great figures and I guess
00:09:08.00\00:09:09.50
there was an
arbitrary in the sub
00:09:09.53\00:09:10.80
which has great
figures the reformation.
00:09:10.83\00:09:11.87
Absolutely.
00:09:11.90\00:09:12.93
Martin Luther
and Oliver Cromwell
00:09:12.96\00:09:15.38
one of my heroes hated
by many but great people.
00:09:15.41\00:09:18.52
You see Huss, you
see Knox, you see--
00:09:18.55\00:09:20.74
Calvin.
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Yeah, Calvin and it was just
the means of letting, you know,
00:09:21.83\00:09:26.34
the individuals have put
their real lives on the line.
00:09:26.37\00:09:29.29
This was not just
a matter of something
00:09:29.32\00:09:31.09
where they were playing games,
00:09:31.12\00:09:32.35
this was life
and death every time.
00:09:32.38\00:09:34.01
And more than just their lives
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and we can talk
about this another program
00:09:35.18\00:09:37.20
but very often that
was their families lives
00:09:37.23\00:09:39.47
that were threatened.
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Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:09:40.58\00:09:41.62
So its one thing if
you're gonna self him a like
00:09:41.65\00:09:44.50
but if that means that your
wife or your children suffer
00:09:44.53\00:09:47.76
and prison or harmed
that could be even much worse.
00:09:47.79\00:09:50.28
Well, I think in
reality what we are looking for
00:09:50.31\00:09:52.78
is trying to
always find those moments
00:09:52.81\00:09:54.63
where we can move
towards doing God's will.
00:09:54.66\00:09:57.53
When you get a chance
to see the reformation
00:09:57.56\00:09:59.63
and all the individuals
there and their lives
00:09:59.66\00:10:02.75
that they put on the line,
00:10:02.78\00:10:03.83
their families
lives were put on the line
00:10:03.86\00:10:05.64
you realize that they had
to have a special faith in God.
00:10:05.67\00:10:08.90
The ability to
want to put everything
00:10:08.93\00:10:10.64
on the line is just something
00:10:10.67\00:10:12.04
that most of us never
really have to understand.
00:10:12.07\00:10:14.53
And I could still
remember thinking about
00:10:14.56\00:10:16.17
can you imagine not
being able to have your Bible
00:10:16.20\00:10:18.59
or having to hide of
things of that nature.
00:10:18.62\00:10:20.99
But if you put
everything in God's hands
00:10:21.02\00:10:22.76
and trust Him with all
00:10:22.79\00:10:24.12
and be willing to have
the faith to follow Him
00:10:24.15\00:10:26.09
it just shows that God will
always protect us all the way.
00:10:26.12\00:10:30.58
The religious liberty
bus tour have focused my mind
00:10:30.61\00:10:34.36
in ways that I never imagined.
00:10:34.39\00:10:36.46
As the wheels on the
bus went round and round
00:10:36.49\00:10:39.61
as the children's story goes
00:10:39.64\00:10:42.09
we moved from one
location to another where we saw
00:10:42.12\00:10:45.79
undeniable physical evidence
of people's faithfulness.
00:10:45.82\00:10:50.78
It was amazing to account
00:10:50.81\00:10:52.94
the words of the
Great Controversy
00:10:52.97\00:10:54.82
written a hundred plus years ago
00:10:54.85\00:10:57.09
writing about events
hundreds of years ago
00:10:57.12\00:10:59.70
and to be in those places
and see written on the walls,
00:10:59.73\00:11:03.73
scroll on the
stones of the floor,
00:11:03.76\00:11:06.88
written in the geography
00:11:06.91\00:11:09.53
as we accounted those locations.
00:11:09.56\00:11:11.80
The stories of people of faith
00:11:11.83\00:11:14.53
at any cost to worship God
00:11:14.56\00:11:17.55
to share and read His holy word
00:11:17.58\00:11:20.17
to give if necessary their lives
00:11:20.20\00:11:23.43
to tackle the
proclamation of the truth.
00:11:23.46\00:11:25.68
The wheels on the
bus went round and round
00:11:25.71\00:11:28.06
but the wheels in my
mind went round and round
00:11:28.09\00:11:30.83
and memory was over whelming.
00:11:30.86\00:11:33.74
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:33.77\00:11:36.92