Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
bringing you up analysis,
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news, up-to-date information
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and facts and
figures you should know
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about religious
liberty in the United States
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and indeed around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And I've a very
special guest on the program,
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Orlan Johnson.
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You are the director of
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Public Affairs
and Religious Liberty
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for the North
American Division of
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Seventh-day Adventist.
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Now that really means that
I need to pay good attention
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to what you say
because I report to you.
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Most of the time.
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Yeah, well,
that's another program.
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But I am very happy to
have you on the program
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and I hope this
is the first of many.
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When I was thinking
about what to talk about,
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you know, all sorts
of topics come to mind.
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But I want to talk
about something that you and I
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experienced together
with about 22 other people
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for two weeks recently in Italy,
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France and Swaziland.
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It was the Great Controversy
Religious Liberty Bus Tour.
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Yes. Yes. It was a
great tour, I thought.
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I was really just amaze
of all the different places
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that we went and
had a chance to see
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where a lot of the--
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what I would call the original
work of the reformation,
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the original work of
religious liberty took place
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and just getting a
chance to see it first hand.
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It's sort of
going back to our roots.
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It actually was,
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it really was and the
idea of being able to see
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where it all started.
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A lot of times you have a
general idea how things were,
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you read about things and books
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but actually be there
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and be able to
put your hands on it
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is a whole different thing.
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Well, talk about
reading from books,
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you and I were both taking
directions from Dr John Graz,
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a world religious liberty leader
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and couple of times I
joke that the tour was also,
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Dr. Graz, this is your life.
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We were
recounting some of the places
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that he'd revisiting
the places he worked at.
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But those
happened to be key places
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for religious liberty and--
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Absolutely, and
one of the things
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that I really appreciate,
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it was the ministry of Dr. Graz.
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Wherever we went,
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everyone treated us very nicely
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and it's just great to
know that when you go out
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and do God's work
that people will come back
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and remember you in a great way.
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Didn't Ellen
White used the term,
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"There are people
looking wistfully to heaven."
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That's true.
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And we met fellow believers
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but we have to believe
even in those places like the--
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where the Waldensians
were in Torre Pellice,
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they fallen on difficult times,
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they're not quite
the same standard bearers
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that they once were.
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But I got the same feeling
that there's a wistfullness
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for the good old days
and for the good old truth
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and faith that
people used to have.
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I think that's the
case because I think clearly
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everyone still
searching for something.
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And when you can
be able to demonstrate
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that we serve a
God who's powerful
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and He's gonna protect
you under all circumstances.
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I was blown away
walking up those hills
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where the
Waldensians were as well
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and the caves the
things of that nature
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and it just made you wonder
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what would I've been like
under those circumstances.
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I know. I know.
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Well, I'll try to revisit
that a bit later in the program
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but one of the
things I want to bring out
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is you spoke about
reading about these things
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in church history
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and I don't know if you like me,
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I used to read
Foxe's Book of Martyrs.
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Yeah. Oh, yeah.
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I know that was in
Ellen White's library
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and the libraries of
many number of the founders
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of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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in the mid 1800s
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but it goes back much further
to the reformation period
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and that was put
together in England
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I think around 1600s
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they started to
assemble that book.
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But the book that
got my attention again
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during the tour was
assigned to my by Dr. Graz.
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He said, everyday,
as we were traveling,
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he wanted to
start off with a reading
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from the Great Controversy.
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Yeah.
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I am sure a lot of our
viewers are aware of that book,
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a Seventh-day
Adventist should be.
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But I think many non
Adventists perhaps seen it
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with the book
salesmen coming door to door
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or that's been
mail out over the years.
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But I can tell if
they haven't seen it,
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it's really an interesting
collection of insights
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from the Bible story
and creation and so on,
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going through the new world,
and God's people redeemed.
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But in between Ellen
White and her researchers
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who helped to
put the book together
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drew from histories by
Milder Benia and Wiley,
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these were well accepted
histories of the reformation
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under that period.
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And to read that again,
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as I had to do as we shared it
on the bus was inspiring to me.
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Oh, absolutely.
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Yeah, specially when you take
a look at some of the writings
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you had on the French revolution
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and a lot of writings
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regarding the
Huguenot and Waldensian,
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you get a chance to
see that she was someone
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who connected
with history as well
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and was able to
put in a perspective.
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And so we as
Christians moving forward,
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that's a real foundation
that we could start with.
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And I think she did an
excellent job with that.
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Absolutely. You
made it real to me like--
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Absolutely.
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We were in Torre
Pellice, you go back to that.
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You know, I heard
about Torre Pellice
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and I guess I knew
that it was vaguely
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where it was in
the Northern part
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of Italy there and
heading up into the Swiss Alps,
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but it's the
Italian Alps at that point.
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But we drove up a little valley.
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Yeah. I wish
we've driven further.
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Remember the-- maybe a preceded.
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You joined us a
couple of days into the tour.
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But there been quite a debate
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whether the bus was
even capable of going up
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a little narrow road to
the top of the mountain.
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And in the end we
cut it little short
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but we still were able to
park it in a roadside stop
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and go on foot up
into the mountains
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and see one of the caves
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where they
regularly met in secret.
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Well, it was quite
interesting especially
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when we started
to make our way up
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and I was thinking
to myself on the bus
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that if these
aren't the dangerous roads
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I am not sure what the
more dangerous roads would be.
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Well, I know some of those roads
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but I don't know them
from bus's perspective
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but on a private
trip many years earlier
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my wife and I decided
to save money going through
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one of the tunnels.
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So I went over the mountains
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and they're almost
beyond description,
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little narrow road that
looks like the road itself
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could fall away
from the mountain
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and you straight
down like you're flying
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in little village sort
of cluster at the bottom.
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Probably would have been
good to go on that in the bus
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but it certainly
underscore, didn't it?
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For me and I am sure
for you that these people
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had to really retreat
from the world for safety.
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Oh, yeah.
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And what really was--
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what hit me strong as
probably was the fact that
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as far away as they were from
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what I would call the
main part of civilization
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that they were still had
individuals chasing them,
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looking to even do away
with them, that far away.
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And it just a
reminder that you never know
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when your enemy is gonna stop
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and that's why it's so important
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you be connected to the Lord.
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Absolutely. And
what was their crime?
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I haven't forgotten but
maybe you can recount it.
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Well, you know the crime
itself was the matter of fact
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that they were
unwilling to claim Catholicism
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and unwilling to be a part
of the mainstream at that time
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and the fact that they
wanted to serve their God
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the way they desired
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and to have
Bibles in their home--
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That was a central
thing that they reform
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and there were several,
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the Albigenses were
another that we studied,
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just a different time frame,
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although they tend to do overlap
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at the end of their
period of influence.
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But that they
all had in common was
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they wanted to study God's word,
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and in studying it
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they saw some
contradictions between
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what the religio-political power
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at the time was forcing on them.
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And they insisted on
their sovereign right
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as creatures of God,
that we want to read this,
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we want to
worship the way God says.
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And very often that mark
then not just as Heretics
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and this is the path
that's hard to explain it came
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through clearly to me
as we travel to those areas
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and I read Great
Controversy again.
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It meant that they
were politically isolate.
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It wasn't just
the Catholic Church
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which was the
dominant religious power
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but the civil powers
that were acting on cues
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from the receive religion
would then see this group
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as dangerous to
their political cohesion.
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It was impossible at
that point really to separate
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the politics from religion.
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It seemed to be
barged in such a way
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that they were both
taking cues from each other
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and one other thing
that was startling to me,
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when you think
about religious liberty is
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sometimes you think well,
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someone oppresses
you because they sat down
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and had this great conversation
of your views verses my views.
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And in reality it
was just generally
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the vim of few individuals
based on their own politics
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and as a result we
found ourselves in a position
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where they were
chasing individuals
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and persecuting for it.
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Well, in the case of Waldenses
they were being hunted down
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and exterminated.
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The cave we went
to was interesting,
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they get into--
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I probably still have the clay
on one of these of my trousers,
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well, my wife
probably washed them now.
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But we had to literally
crawl through a little wormhole.
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And then it opened up,
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it wasn't a cave
in a classic sense,
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it was a huge cleft in
the rock that opened up
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at the bottom and then
the rocks met at the top
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and you can see a couple
of chinks of light at the top.
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But that could
have probably swallowed,
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what a 100, 150
people if necessarily.
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Yeah. And the idea was--
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I remember I was
thinking to myself,
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am I really going to try
to go through this little hole
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to get in there
and just thinking
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how dangerous it was.
00:09:50.66\00:09:52.43
And I think you remember
when we went in they tell you,
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you had to start to the
left and slide to the right.
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Yeah, that was
wormhole, twisted.
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And you know for fear
of maybe cutting your head
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or some thing along those lines.
00:10:01.04\00:10:02.24
But it's just a
reminder that people are willing
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to really go to
unbelievable lengths
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in order to serve
the God they love.
00:10:06.44\00:10:08.53
Now with--
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I think the cave we
might other was gone to
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was higher up in the
hills where must have been
00:10:12.20\00:10:15.66
lot big because I
think it was somewhere
00:10:15.69\00:10:16.84
around a
thousand of them shelter
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during one attack
and they were discovered,
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like most defeats as
always inside of that says,
00:10:23.91\00:10:27.11
well, I know where they
are, I lead you up to them.
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They were discovered
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and the solders rather going in,
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built a fire at the entrance
and suffocated everyone.
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And you could see how
somebody actually got up to
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where those entrances were.
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There was only way
in and one way out.
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And so it would have been
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very, very
important that you be--
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Well, and that's what
I wanted to bring out.
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The cave is a good
thing but when you discover
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it was the worst thing
because there is no escape,
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you're like--
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Jesus used the term
for His homelessness
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but like you know,
fox, he doesn't have a hole.
00:10:58.97\00:11:01.53
That's right.
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But you get in
that hole and you're--
00:11:03.06\00:11:04.98
and the hounds run you
down, you're really caught.
00:11:05.01\00:11:07.84
So I really admire
those people in wretch respect
00:11:07.87\00:11:11.53
when I recounted or
retraced the steps up
00:11:11.56\00:11:14.94
to the little cave
and the little village
00:11:14.97\00:11:18.03
for one of the term.
00:11:18.06\00:11:19.18
But there's probably not
much changed since those days.
00:11:19.21\00:11:22.12
I would think not
and the acquaintance of
00:11:22.15\00:11:24.39
what I found to
be quite interesting
00:11:24.42\00:11:26.14
and the ability to try
to just imagine in your mind
00:11:26.17\00:11:29.61
what it would have been like
00:11:29.64\00:11:30.69
and we were
actually walking on path
00:11:30.72\00:11:32.74
that had been carved out,
00:11:32.77\00:11:34.05
back in those days
they were probably really
00:11:34.08\00:11:36.35
just jumping on stones and grass
00:11:36.38\00:11:39.75
and it was probably
extremely dangerous.
00:11:39.78\00:11:41.37
But you know, they decided
00:11:41.40\00:11:42.48
that's what
they were going to do
00:11:42.51\00:11:43.54
and they made their way there.
00:11:43.57\00:11:46.18
I want to say something
that is risky of offending
00:11:46.21\00:11:48.21
some of my friends in Australia
00:11:48.24\00:11:49.52
but I worked at
a publishing house
00:11:49.55\00:11:51.58
in a little country
town called Wolverton
00:11:51.61\00:11:53.99
in the southern
part of the Australia.
00:11:54.02\00:11:55.20
And I must tell you,
00:11:55.23\00:11:56.35
as we walk in those little
tracks there in Torre Pellice,
00:11:56.38\00:12:00.08
that was other
than the mountains
00:12:00.11\00:12:02.10
not being quite as told.
00:12:02.13\00:12:03.76
I could have been in--
00:12:03.79\00:12:04.96
as well been in
Wolverton, Australia
00:12:04.99\00:12:07.94
where at different 2,500 or so
00:12:07.97\00:12:11.64
Adventists had clustered
together to work on printing,
00:12:11.67\00:12:15.07
producing the
foods, caring for people.
00:12:15.10\00:12:17.28
And it reminded me,
that's not so different.
00:12:17.31\00:12:20.35
A dedicated
community of self-proclaims
00:12:20.38\00:12:23.33
and more than
self-proclaim people
00:12:23.36\00:12:25.66
that have dedicated
their lives to being reformers,
00:12:25.69\00:12:28.03
self-proclaims reformers
here in the mountain fastness
00:12:28.06\00:12:31.44
doing good things and
yet when something goes wrong
00:12:31.47\00:12:35.58
as I discovered at Wolverton,
00:12:35.61\00:12:37.37
the figure can be
pointed very easily toward
00:12:37.40\00:12:40.17
the Adventist
community or the Waldenses,
00:12:40.20\00:12:42.16
they doing this.
00:12:42.19\00:12:43.34
And what I picked up on
some of these histories,
00:12:43.37\00:12:46.17
yes, they were at
different times involved
00:12:46.20\00:12:49.46
in armed resistance
and you can probably point
00:12:49.49\00:12:51.93
to one of their solders
did something less than ideal
00:12:51.96\00:12:55.51
but as a totality,
00:12:55.54\00:12:57.19
it's clear that
there were people compelled
00:12:57.22\00:12:59.54
by a sense of
importance of faith to them
00:12:59.57\00:13:02.77
and the desire to spread that.
00:13:02.80\00:13:04.66
Well, I think one of the issues
00:13:04.69\00:13:05.77
whenever you have
politics are involve
00:13:05.80\00:13:07.43
you always have to
have a foil somewhere
00:13:07.46\00:13:09.54
and it's a way of
sometimes deflecting a way
00:13:09.57\00:13:12.13
what maybe going on politically.
00:13:12.16\00:13:13.82
So if you can find an
enemy to point to at all time--
00:13:13.85\00:13:16.43
Sound like Nero,
00:13:16.46\00:13:17.73
hey we need to get back
to run where we started.
00:13:17.76\00:13:20.78
That's right.
00:13:20.81\00:13:22.62
But we got few
minutes left but--
00:13:22.65\00:13:27.01
maybe you can jump anywhere,
00:13:27.04\00:13:28.12
what was the single thing
00:13:28.15\00:13:29.38
that really
impressed you on this tour?
00:13:29.41\00:13:33.02
You were there for
almost the two way.
00:13:33.05\00:13:35.44
I think one of the
things that I really enjoyed
00:13:35.47\00:13:37.42
was the idea of
getting the chance
00:13:37.45\00:13:39.16
to go to see
church in the woods.
00:13:39.19\00:13:42.00
I thought you'd say that.
00:13:42.03\00:13:43.06
We had a great opportunity
on Sabbath to worship
00:13:43.09\00:13:46.11
with some of our friends.
00:13:46.14\00:13:47.17
This was the second Sabbath.
00:13:47.20\00:13:48.50
The second Sabbath in France
00:13:48.53\00:13:50.46
and to be outside
in the midst of the,
00:13:50.49\00:13:54.36
what I would call just
nature and thinking about,
00:13:54.39\00:13:57.53
you know, the Lord
and how many people had
00:13:57.56\00:14:00.07
probably worshiped Him.
00:14:00.10\00:14:01.44
It was great to just see
the strength of the people
00:14:01.47\00:14:05.53
and the joy that
they were felling
00:14:05.56\00:14:07.84
and the idea of sitting there,
00:14:07.87\00:14:09.12
and feeling the
breeze come by and actually
00:14:09.15\00:14:12.13
having a roaster that's
almost created in the trees.
00:14:12.16\00:14:15.61
I thought all of that
was very, very powerful and--
00:14:15.64\00:14:18.34
It was. It was.
00:14:18.37\00:14:20.01
And I want to come back to that.
00:14:20.04\00:14:21.15
We need to take a break now.
00:14:21.18\00:14:22.36
So if you want
to hear more about
00:14:22.39\00:14:24.31
a Great Controversy
Religious Liberty Tour,
00:14:24.34\00:14:27.32
24 people on the bus
roaming through Europe,
00:14:27.35\00:14:29.88
sounds like an adventure.
00:14:29.91\00:14:31.18
Stay with us, we'll
be back in a few moments.
00:14:31.21\00:14:33.42