Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000256B
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00:03 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:05 Before the break with guest Dr. John Graz, 00:07 we were talking about an upcoming 00:10 religious liberty tour that you're organizing 00:12 and we both going on to Rome, Switzerland. 00:16 Geneva. Yeah, Geneva ending in France. 00:18 Torre Pellice from the Waldensian. 00:21 You know, I was thinking 00:23 and maybe this is a generational problem 00:25 but I was thinking of the Beetles 00:26 and their magical mystery tour. 00:30 And in some ways for religious liberty 00:31 this is going to be a magical tour for a lot of us 00:34 who deal with theory to go back to the exact place 00:37 where these things happen to, 00:40 you know, walk where they walk, 00:41 see the, artifacts. 00:43 And you know, we go to Rome, 00:45 it's relatively risen, 00:47 you know, several hundred years 00:48 but a lot of ancient civilizations in Israel 00:51 are it's crumbled away to nothing. 00:52 But many of these churches and places 00:54 in Europe certainly in Switzerland, 00:56 they are not radically different from the days 00:58 when Calvin was there. 01:00 If you go to their cathedral, that is the same cathedral. 01:02 It was built before the reformation. 01:05 So I believe that and it's a real away 01:07 as it's possible today for anyway 01:09 we can sort of step back into that, 01:11 that environment then we'll read 01:13 and study the history again at the time. 01:15 I think it's going to be-- 01:16 No, that's interesting because-- 01:17 Fabulous experience. 01:18 At the reformation, 01:20 you know, the reformers say that-- 01:22 In Swiss it worked like that. People voted. 01:24 You know, people decided that 01:26 this city will become protestant 01:27 because they want some contracts and so on. 01:30 And of course they are many other factors 01:33 but after you know they say that, 01:34 now the people, the people built the cathedral, 01:37 the people were forced to have one religion, 01:40 now the people decide to have another religion, 01:43 the cathedral on to the people, 01:45 belong to the people and this is what happened. 01:48 This is why the beautiful cathedral in Switzerland 01:51 which were built before the reformation, 01:54 are narrow part of their reformation of heritage. 01:58 But we need to remind ourselves of the very real struggle. 02:01 I was reading a book put up 02:03 by the Roman Catholics the other day. 02:05 We'll put together and stay right to say what it is, 02:08 but I didn't like the way they said. 02:10 The reformation, they said, 02:11 had less to do with religion and the wishes of Henry VIII 02:15 and the political needs of this and that of the other. 02:17 They dismiss very globally and extremely a real viable 02:23 and central issue of doctrinal study 02:26 and divergence and principle that was applied-- 02:28 You will see that when you will visit the seven, 02:31 what we call the seven southern part of France 02:34 and the Tower of Constantine or the story of Mary Durrant 02:38 where people were forced to become Catholic. 02:40 They were-- 02:41 Tell me more about Mary Durrant. 02:44 Yeah, there was this contact with people 02:45 who were forced. 02:46 You know, they lost their right one after the other. 02:50 At the end they say 02:51 that there is no longer any protestant, 02:53 you know, in the country. 02:55 But what about those who are having secret meeting. 02:58 You know, they are criminals. 03:00 And they were treated as criminal. 03:02 It means they were forced. 03:04 In the first time, you know, 03:06 those who did not want and had the money, 03:08 left the country. 03:09 They has still the possibility, after they have no right. 03:12 They had no right to leave the country. 03:14 What can you do? 03:15 You know, and suddenly, you know, 03:18 some young people had a vision, dream, 03:22 and they said you have to come back to their religion, 03:26 the Bible and so on. 03:27 And they start to resist and they start you know, 03:31 the movement of resistant. 03:32 It means they have a multiplication 03:34 of secret meeting. 03:36 That was a crime to be part to attend. 03:39 And sometime they were until 3,000 people 03:41 attending super pressure. 03:43 Do you think that 03:44 was a significant part of the reformation, 03:45 the visions of young people? 03:48 That was not-- 03:49 that was located just in this part of the world. 03:52 I know, where was it? Was it in Sweden? 03:53 There were the child preachers. Yeah, exactly. 03:56 That was more or less are the same 03:57 but located in some part, 03:59 you know, especially where people 04:01 were very much oppressed. 04:03 And you have the soldiers in their house. 04:06 They persecute people. 04:07 They rape the ladies and so that was terrible. 04:10 And suddenly you know, 04:11 what is the interest of this people? 04:15 They were forced to change the religion 04:17 and suddenly they comeback 04:18 to their religion with all problems. 04:21 Now they are criminals. They were arrested. 04:23 They were tortured. They were killed. 04:26 And you know, if you don't believe, 04:28 you don't do that. 04:29 That's not just a politic-- and political move, you know, 04:32 there is no politics behind specially at this time, 04:35 specially at the beginning. 04:36 Of course, after they tried to find alias 04:39 and especially England, you know, 04:41 they hold that the English will come to help them. 04:43 But that was really not possible but really-- 04:46 You mean, you're talking about the Waldenses. 04:49 No I talk about the-- 04:51 Because Oliver Cromwell threatened 04:52 to bring an English army to relieve the Waldenses 04:55 which is a interesting development. 04:56 Yeah, I talk about the French Protestant 04:58 and they are ignored. 04:59 They always thought that, you know, even before 05:02 and now Russell they expected that the English came-- 05:05 And England was sympathetic to them, 05:07 but I think what I overwrote the English concern 05:10 was their hatred-- 05:11 well, its not hatred, suspicion of the French anyhow. 05:14 So they were, they were less, 05:16 they were more English than Protestants 05:17 I think at that point, right. 05:19 It means that when they saw that 05:20 they were totally isolated they fought by themselves. 05:23 But, you know, I don't see any interest 05:26 and specially this part 05:28 where you have no interest to keep one religion. 05:31 It's like, we talk about people in some countries today. 05:35 What is their interest to become to stay Christian 05:38 or to become Christian. 05:40 Just to have a multiplication of problem or suffering 05:44 if they stay Christian or if they become Christian. 05:47 It means, they are doing that because they are convinced 05:50 and most of their leaders were killed. 05:52 What is the interest? 05:53 You have pastor coming from Switzerland. 05:55 They were trained in Switzerland 05:57 and they came back to France knowing that 05:59 if they were arrested they will be executed. 06:04 Why they did that they do that? 06:05 Just because they believed that they-- 06:06 The question comes up and I ask you. 06:08 Usually I know that answer 06:09 because I don't went on for same things on our program. 06:12 But I've studied history and I don't know 06:14 when the shift came from like Clovis 06:19 was the king of the Franks was baptized to Christian 06:21 or the ruler of Moscow 06:24 and the whole nation became Christian. 06:26 When did the shift come 06:27 from a national religious identity where-- 06:31 it clearly existed at the beginning 06:32 of the reformation, like Luther. 06:33 It's true the princes became sympathetic and that 06:36 but clearly at somebody everybody became Lutheran. 06:40 Yeah, but-- 06:41 It wasn't particularly an individual matter. 06:43 There was a national shift or an identify 06:45 for one religion or the other. 06:47 When did this individual self determination 06:50 for religious matters really kick in? 06:52 I think Protestantism was the beginning of it, 06:55 but something must to have happened, 06:57 must have happened between then and now to-- 06:59 I think when people had access to the Bible, 07:03 you know, access to the books which we're not, 07:06 you know, remember that the printer was from this time. 07:09 Was tied up for the reformation, that's true. 07:11 I mean, when they had-- you had a lot of brochure. 07:13 You know, this is how we explain the beginning 07:17 and the spreading of the Lutherans because, 07:19 you know, the brochures and the pamphlet 07:21 and so on and people have access 07:24 and they eat read it 07:25 and they start to talk about it. 07:27 And then, you know, when they were prosecuted-- 07:29 And maybe it's as simple as literacy 07:31 because there's no question that the printing press 07:34 and dissemination of tracks 07:36 as well as the Bible facilitated the reformation. 07:39 But it's not as simple as people think 07:41 because the literacy level 07:43 was not very high in the population. 07:45 So it would affect a limited group of the population. 07:48 So maybe its general literacy increased. 07:51 This maybe more generalized 07:53 self determination of the individual kicked in 07:55 because it lacked the reformation 07:57 I'm sure of it. 07:58 Many Protestant at the beginning 07:59 were high educated people or educated people. 08:03 The noble you know, I say that 30, 08:06 more than 30% of the noble in France 08:08 became Protestants. 08:09 But you know, when after you have high level people 08:12 becoming protestant it becomes politics too 08:17 because they defend what they believe 08:19 or what they have. 08:20 It means, if they are in the, like colony, 08:21 colony was a fabulous general and maul. 08:25 He defend he's our face and his people in the army. 08:30 He was also the head of the army in France. 08:33 It means, you know, you have-- 08:35 at the beginning you have people 08:37 who really won't believe, 08:38 than after when you become a power 08:41 you defend what you have and it becomes politics, 08:43 so that's true. 08:44 But you know, when the repressing 08:48 the persecution came, 08:50 the politic was no longer on the surface. 08:55 It was still on a surface when they got you know, 08:58 the city of refuge and so on. 09:00 They are still some power 09:02 but after they lost everything, every power. 09:05 I talk about the-- Of course we must keep in mind. 09:06 When you talk about that the counter reformation-- 09:09 the Roman Catholic Church 09:10 is the established religious power. 09:12 They were pushing back hard. 09:13 They weren't just sitting there letting Protestantism grow. 09:14 No, no, no, no. 09:16 Now that's always you know, 09:18 when you talk about freedom and people believe that okay, 09:21 you have freedom, freedom is not static. 09:23 You get it or lose it. 09:26 It means that you have a very strong power against freedom. 09:30 If you do nothing to protect your freedom you will lose it 09:34 and it's true in politics too. 09:36 And Ellen White writing the Seventh- day Adventist 09:38 but relevant to everyone she says 09:40 that we need to retrace the way the Lord's let us in the past, 09:43 that will encourage us. 09:44 And I think talking about the reformation, 09:46 as we're going to do, to go back over those, 09:49 those same spots and remember those people 09:51 its got to be encouraging. 09:53 And you know the Mary Durant, 09:55 she was arrested when she was 18-17 years old 09:59 and she spent 39 years in prison. 10:02 And that is why, you know, we have-- 10:04 we should not forget history and we should not forget 10:07 how expensive the price of religious freedom 10:12 and when we today promote religious freedom 10:15 we do it because we are pressured 10:18 what we have and we want to protect 10:20 and to promote it. 10:22 That is really the message we want to spread around us 10:25 and in the world too. 10:28 A few years ago 10:29 when I was a little bit younger, 10:30 I remember singing very vigorously a song 10:34 that when something like this 10:35 I'm gonna walk in Jerusalem just like John. 10:39 But in reality today, 10:41 people who choose to can go to some of these places. 10:44 You can go to Rome and stand 10:47 where the Caesar stood just as they heard Paul. 10:51 So you can stand where Paul stood. 10:53 And as this tour that Dr. Graz 10:56 was telling about this religious freedom tour 10:59 is going to experience. 11:00 You can go to Geneva and you can stand 11:03 where John Calvin stood, 11:05 perhaps in the same church or cathedral. 11:08 There's a great heritage of religious freedom. 11:11 It's not an abstraction, it's a historical reality 11:16 and I think we need to keep reminding ourselves of that. 11:19 Flesh and blood people 11:22 argued for their faith against flesh and blood enemies. 11:25 They were consequences to their faith 11:28 and in spite of the cost, in spite of the risk, 11:31 in spite of the inhibitions from society 11:33 and from law and from the kings 11:35 and the principalities people of faith persevered, 11:39 sometimes gave their lives but always stood for faith, 11:43 always which is for truth. |
Revised 2015-01-15