Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with guest Dr. John Graz,
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we were talking
about an upcoming
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religious liberty
tour that you're organizing
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and we both going on
to Rome, Switzerland.
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Geneva. Yeah,
Geneva ending in France.
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Torre Pellice
from the Waldensian.
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You know, I was thinking
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and maybe this is a
generational problem
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but I was
thinking of the Beetles
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and their magical mystery tour.
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And in some ways
for religious liberty
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this is going to be a
magical tour for a lot of us
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who deal with theory to
go back to the exact place
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where these things happen to,
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you know, walk where they walk,
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see the, artifacts.
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And you know, we go to Rome,
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it's relatively risen,
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you know, several hundred years
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but a lot of ancient
civilizations in Israel
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are it's
crumbled away to nothing.
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But many of these
churches and places
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in Europe
certainly in Switzerland,
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they are not radically
different from the days
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when Calvin was there.
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If you go to their cathedral,
that is the same cathedral.
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It was built
before the reformation.
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So I believe that
and it's a real away
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as it's
possible today for anyway
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we can sort of
step back into that,
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that environment then we'll read
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and study the
history again at the time.
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I think it's going to be--
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No, that's interesting because--
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Fabulous experience.
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At the reformation,
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you know, the
reformers say that--
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In Swiss it worked
like that. People voted.
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You know, people decided that
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this city will become protestant
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because they want
some contracts and so on.
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And of course they
are many other factors
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but after you
know they say that,
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now the people, the
people built the cathedral,
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the people were
forced to have one religion,
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now the people decide
to have another religion,
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the cathedral on to the people,
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belong to the people
and this is what happened.
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This is why the beautiful
cathedral in Switzerland
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which were built
before the reformation,
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are narrow part of
their reformation of heritage.
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But we need to remind ourselves
of the very real struggle.
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I was reading a book put up
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by the Roman
Catholics the other day.
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We'll put together and
stay right to say what it is,
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but I didn't like
the way they said.
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The reformation, they said,
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had less to do with religion
and the wishes of Henry VIII
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and the political needs of
this and that of the other.
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They dismiss very globally
and extremely a real viable
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and central issue
of doctrinal study
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and divergence and
principle that was applied--
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You will see that when
you will visit the seven,
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what we call the seven
southern part of France
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and the Tower of Constantine
or the story of Mary Durrant
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where people were
forced to become Catholic.
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They were--
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Tell me more about Mary Durrant.
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Yeah, there was
this contact with people
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who were forced.
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You know, they lost their
right one after the other.
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At the end they say
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that there is no
longer any protestant,
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you know, in the country.
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But what about those who
are having secret meeting.
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You know, they are criminals.
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And they were
treated as criminal.
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It means they were forced.
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In the first time, you know,
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those who did not
want and had the money,
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left the country.
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They has still the possibility,
after they have no right.
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They had no right
to leave the country.
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What can you do?
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You know, and
suddenly, you know,
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some young people
had a vision, dream,
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and they said you have to
come back to their religion,
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the Bible and so on.
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And they start to
resist and they start you know,
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the movement of resistant.
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It means they
have a multiplication
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of secret meeting.
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That was a crime
to be part to attend.
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And sometime they
were until 3,000 people
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attending super pressure.
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Do you think that
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was a significant
part of the reformation,
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the visions of young people?
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That was not--
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that was located just
in this part of the world.
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I know, where was
it? Was it in Sweden?
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There were the child
preachers. Yeah, exactly.
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That was more or
less are the same
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but located in some part,
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you know,
especially where people
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were very much oppressed.
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And you have the
soldiers in their house.
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They persecute people.
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They rape the ladies
and so that was terrible.
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And suddenly you know,
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what is the
interest of this people?
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They were forced
to change the religion
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and suddenly they comeback
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to their religion
with all problems.
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Now they are
criminals. They were arrested.
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They were
tortured. They were killed.
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And you know, if
you don't believe,
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you don't do that.
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That's not just a politic--
and political move, you know,
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there is no politics
behind specially at this time,
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specially at the beginning.
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Of course, after
they tried to find alias
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and especially
England, you know,
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they hold that the
English will come to help them.
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But that was really
not possible but really--
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You mean, you're
talking about the Waldenses.
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No I talk about the--
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Because Oliver
Cromwell threatened
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to bring an English
army to relieve the Waldenses
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which is a
interesting development.
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Yeah, I talk about
the French Protestant
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and they are ignored.
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They always thought
that, you know, even before
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and now Russell they
expected that the English came--
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And England was
sympathetic to them,
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but I think what I
overwrote the English concern
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was their hatred--
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well, its not hatred,
suspicion of the French anyhow.
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So they were, they were less,
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they were more
English than Protestants
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I think at that point, right.
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It means that when they saw that
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they were totally isolated
they fought by themselves.
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But, you know, I
don't see any interest
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and specially this part
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where you have no
interest to keep one religion.
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It's like, we talk about
people in some countries today.
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What is their interest
to become to stay Christian
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or to become Christian.
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Just to have a multiplication
of problem or suffering
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if they stay Christian
or if they become Christian.
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It means, they are doing
that because they are convinced
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and most of their
leaders were killed.
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What is the interest?
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You have pastor
coming from Switzerland.
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They were trained in Switzerland
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and they came back
to France knowing that
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if they were arrested
they will be executed.
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Why they did that they do that?
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Just because they
believed that they--
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The question
comes up and I ask you.
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Usually I know that answer
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because I don't went on
for same things on our program.
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But I've studied
history and I don't know
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when the shift
came from like Clovis
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was the king of the
Franks was baptized to Christian
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or the ruler of Moscow
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and the whole
nation became Christian.
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When did the shift come
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from a national
religious identity where--
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it clearly
existed at the beginning
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of the reformation, like Luther.
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It's true the princes
became sympathetic and that
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but clearly at somebody
everybody became Lutheran.
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Yeah, but--
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It wasn't particularly
an individual matter.
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There was a
national shift or an identify
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for one religion or the other.
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When did this
individual self determination
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for religious
matters really kick in?
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I think Protestantism
was the beginning of it,
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but something
must to have happened,
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must have happened
between then and now to--
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I think when people
had access to the Bible,
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you know, access to
the books which we're not,
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you know, remember that
the printer was from this time.
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Was tied up for the
reformation, that's true.
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I mean, when they had--
you had a lot of brochure.
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You know, this is how
we explain the beginning
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and the spreading of
the Lutherans because,
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you know, the
brochures and the pamphlet
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and so on and people have access
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and they eat read it
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and they start to talk about it.
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And then, you know,
when they were prosecuted--
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And maybe it's as
simple as literacy
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because there's no
question that the printing press
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and dissemination of tracks
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as well as the Bible
facilitated the reformation.
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But it's not as
simple as people think
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because the literacy level
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was not very high
in the population.
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So it would affect a
limited group of the population.
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So maybe its
general literacy increased.
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This maybe more generalized
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self determination of
the individual kicked in
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because it
lacked the reformation
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I'm sure of it.
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Many Protestant at the beginning
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were high educated
people or educated people.
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The noble you
know, I say that 30,
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more than 30% of
the noble in France
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became Protestants.
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But you know, when after
you have high level people
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becoming protestant
it becomes politics too
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because they
defend what they believe
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or what they have.
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It means, if they
are in the, like colony,
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colony was a
fabulous general and maul.
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He defend he's our face
and his people in the army.
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He was also the head
of the army in France.
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It means, you know, you have--
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at the beginning you have people
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who really won't believe,
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than after when
you become a power
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you defend what you
have and it becomes politics,
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so that's true.
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But you know,
when the repressing
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the persecution came,
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the politic was no
longer on the surface.
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It was still on a
surface when they got you know,
00:08:55.18\00:08:58.20
the city of refuge and so on.
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They are still some power
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but after they lost
everything, every power.
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I talk about the-- Of
course we must keep in mind.
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When you talk about that
the counter reformation--
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the Roman Catholic Church
00:09:09.19\00:09:10.39
is the
established religious power.
00:09:10.42\00:09:12.10
They were pushing back hard.
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They weren't just sitting there
letting Protestantism grow.
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No, no, no, no.
00:09:14.88\00:09:16.93
Now that's always you know,
00:09:16.96\00:09:17.99
when you talk about freedom
and people believe that okay,
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you have freedom,
freedom is not static.
00:09:21.36\00:09:23.47
You get it or lose it.
00:09:23.50\00:09:25.97
It means that you have a very
strong power against freedom.
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If you do nothing to protect
your freedom you will lose it
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and it's true in politics too.
00:09:34.29\00:09:36.30
And Ellen White writing
the Seventh- day Adventist
00:09:36.33\00:09:38.29
but relevant to
everyone she says
00:09:38.32\00:09:40.01
that we need to retrace the way
the Lord's let us in the past,
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that will encourage us.
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And I think talking
about the reformation,
00:09:44.45\00:09:46.27
as we're going to do,
to go back over those,
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those same spots and
remember those people
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its got to be encouraging.
00:09:51.75\00:09:53.40
And you know the Mary Durant,
00:09:53.43\00:09:55.87
she was arrested when
she was 18-17 years old
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and she spent
39 years in prison.
00:09:59.72\00:10:02.94
And that is why,
you know, we have--
00:10:02.97\00:10:04.76
we should not forget
history and we should not forget
00:10:04.79\00:10:07.55
how expensive the
price of religious freedom
00:10:07.58\00:10:12.48
and when we today
promote religious freedom
00:10:12.51\00:10:15.61
we do it
because we are pressured
00:10:15.64\00:10:18.29
what we have and
we want to protect
00:10:18.32\00:10:20.66
and to promote it.
00:10:20.69\00:10:22.38
That is really the message
we want to spread around us
00:10:22.41\00:10:25.91
and in the world too.
00:10:25.94\00:10:28.49
A few years ago
00:10:28.52\00:10:29.62
when I was a little bit younger,
00:10:29.65\00:10:30.68
I remember singing
very vigorously a song
00:10:30.71\00:10:34.13
that when something like this
00:10:34.16\00:10:35.41
I'm gonna walk in
Jerusalem just like John.
00:10:35.44\00:10:39.18
But in reality today,
00:10:39.21\00:10:41.63
people who choose to can
go to some of these places.
00:10:41.66\00:10:44.08
You can go to Rome and stand
00:10:44.11\00:10:47.32
where the Caesar stood
just as they heard Paul.
00:10:47.35\00:10:51.52
So you can stand
where Paul stood.
00:10:51.55\00:10:53.83
And as this tour that Dr. Graz
00:10:53.86\00:10:56.07
was telling about
this religious freedom tour
00:10:56.10\00:10:59.06
is going to experience.
00:10:59.09\00:11:00.51
You can go to
Geneva and you can stand
00:11:00.54\00:11:03.50
where John Calvin stood,
00:11:03.53\00:11:05.07
perhaps in the same
church or cathedral.
00:11:05.10\00:11:08.69
There's a great
heritage of religious freedom.
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It's not an abstraction,
it's a historical reality
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and I think we need to keep
reminding ourselves of that.
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Flesh and blood people
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argued for their faith
against flesh and blood enemies.
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They were
consequences to their faith
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and in spite of the
cost, in spite of the risk,
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in spite of the
inhibitions from society
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and from law and from the kings
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and the principalities
people of faith persevered,
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sometimes gave their lives
but always stood for faith,
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always which is for truth.
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