Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:15.09\00:00:17.04
This is a program
bringing you news,
00:00:17.07\00:00:18.91
views, discussion, and analysis
of religious liberty events
00:00:18.94\00:00:23.11
in the United States
and around the world.
00:00:23.14\00:00:25.62
My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
00:00:25.65\00:00:28.92
And my guest on this program
00:00:28.95\00:00:30.48
is Dr. John
Graz, secretary general
00:00:30.51\00:00:32.59
of the International Religious
Liberty Association or IRLA.
00:00:32.62\00:00:36.48
Great pleasure to
be with you, Lincoln.
00:00:36.51\00:00:38.40
It's always great to
have you on the program.
00:00:38.43\00:00:41.94
I want to talk about something
that I know is very dear
00:00:41.97\00:00:43.96
and immediate to your
heart because within a few days,
00:00:43.99\00:00:47.01
you're going to lead the--
I think it's the first ever
00:00:47.04\00:00:50.45
from your department
the reformation tour.
00:00:50.48\00:00:54.10
It's a tour on
religious freedom.
00:00:54.13\00:00:55.49
Religious
freedom reformation tour.
00:00:55.52\00:00:56.57
Yes, in fact the
title is great controversy
00:00:56.60\00:00:59.32
and religious freedom.
00:00:59.35\00:01:01.69
I'm coming along on it in this--
00:01:01.72\00:01:03.71
how many are going on this tour?
00:01:03.74\00:01:05.12
Oh, it's another big group,
00:01:05.15\00:01:07.29
there's a group of
selected people, 25, 26.
00:01:07.32\00:01:10.84
Yeah, but it's
gonna be wonderful
00:01:10.87\00:01:12.76
to do the rounds
in starting in Italy.
00:01:12.79\00:01:15.27
We started in Rome.
00:01:15.30\00:01:16.36
And ending in
Switzerland it's not, France.
00:01:16.39\00:01:19.26
We ended in Paris, yeah.
00:01:19.29\00:01:20.66
Paris but by way we
go through Switzerland.
00:01:20.69\00:01:23.06
So going to some of
those incredible spots
00:01:23.09\00:01:26.70
with the different reformers
00:01:26.73\00:01:28.32
and the different events
of the reformation took place.
00:01:28.35\00:01:30.74
And especially where
people were persecuted,
00:01:30.77\00:01:33.21
where you had also sometime
as a kind of light of hope
00:01:33.24\00:01:37.06
and but it
happens just few years,
00:01:37.09\00:01:40.36
then after you
had again persecution,
00:01:40.39\00:01:43.10
you know, the
purpose of the tour
00:01:43.13\00:01:45.22
is to show to the people
who are involved in defending,
00:01:45.25\00:01:48.47
promoting religious freedom
00:01:48.50\00:01:49.93
that religious
freedom is fragile.
00:01:49.96\00:01:52.64
You know, you can have
it and you can lose it.
00:01:52.67\00:01:55.47
And when you lose it,
00:01:55.50\00:01:57.08
it's really, really, really bad.
00:01:57.11\00:01:59.52
And we will see, you
know, many experience,
00:01:59.55\00:02:02.85
many site where
people have suffering
00:02:02.88\00:02:05.20
but also some hope
because at the end,
00:02:05.23\00:02:07.92
you know, we
will finish in Paris.
00:02:07.95\00:02:11.05
In Paris you
have all you can make
00:02:11.08\00:02:13.30
or rake up a relation or
summarize, evolve a story,
00:02:13.33\00:02:16.18
you have the
church in the middle age,
00:02:16.21\00:02:18.42
we've Notre-Dame,
00:02:18.45\00:02:20.68
then you have the St. Bartolome,
00:02:20.71\00:02:22.89
Bartholomew which was a--
00:02:22.92\00:02:24.07
The massacre?
00:02:24.10\00:02:25.13
Massacre, which was
terrible, terrible massacre
00:02:25.16\00:02:27.95
where 6,000
Protestants were killed
00:02:27.98\00:02:30.08
and more than 30,000 in France
00:02:30.11\00:02:32.98
just because
they were Protestants.
00:02:33.01\00:02:34.51
Then you have the
human riot-- the revolution,
00:02:34.54\00:02:36.81
then you have the
human rights declarations.
00:02:36.84\00:02:38.71
Do you have any memory of
what the population of Paris
00:02:38.74\00:02:42.73
was at the time
of St. Bartholomew?
00:02:42.76\00:02:43.87
That's a good question
but not a lot, you know.
00:02:43.90\00:02:46.28
I know because people
sometimes forget this,
00:02:46.31\00:02:48.53
that's a
significant number in itself,
00:02:48.56\00:02:50.29
but I'd be very
surprised if Paris was more than
00:02:50.32\00:02:53.94
a couple of hundred
thousand people at that time.
00:02:53.97\00:02:55.64
That was not a lot but,
00:02:55.67\00:02:56.92
you know, that was
a terrible massacre.
00:02:56.95\00:02:58.19
So a very high percentage
of the city were killed,
00:02:58.22\00:03:00.97
almost on signals,
just killing like in Rwanda.
00:03:01.00\00:03:04.28
Yeah, the story was terrible
00:03:04.31\00:03:06.62
because they came for
the wedding of their leaders,
00:03:06.65\00:03:09.98
you know, the king of Navarre
00:03:10.01\00:03:11.90
who became after the
king of France and they were--
00:03:11.93\00:03:14.89
It was Henry of
Navarre, wasn't it?
00:03:14.92\00:03:16.28
Yeah, Henry IV.
00:03:16.31\00:03:17.78
They were very happy
about these possibility
00:03:17.81\00:03:20.57
and also it was from
the monarchy of this time,
00:03:20.60\00:03:23.46
a possibility to have peace
00:03:23.49\00:03:24.88
because they had
already two wars,
00:03:24.91\00:03:26.62
two religious
terrible religious wars.
00:03:26.65\00:03:29.21
And at this time in France,
00:03:29.24\00:03:30.61
Protestants were more
than 15% of the population
00:03:30.64\00:03:34.58
and we use to say
30% of the nobles.
00:03:34.61\00:03:38.27
It means, and
they had in their side
00:03:38.30\00:03:41.53
the blood prince of the prince
00:03:41.56\00:03:43.48
who can pretend
to be king one day.
00:03:43.51\00:03:46.16
And it means they were
really a strong political party,
00:03:46.19\00:03:49.42
a strong group,
the top level people
00:03:49.45\00:03:52.47
and they were seen as a
very dangerous for the fanatics,
00:03:52.50\00:03:56.61
and the king
wanted to have peace
00:03:56.64\00:03:59.62
and the mother of the king
who was behind all this story,
00:03:59.65\00:04:03.22
you know, say that the best way
00:04:03.25\00:04:05.06
to have peace is to marry
my daughter with their leader.
00:04:05.09\00:04:10.32
And unfortunately, you know,
00:04:10.35\00:04:12.13
it became a trap for thousand
and thousand Protestants,
00:04:12.16\00:04:15.64
and they were massacre,
00:04:15.67\00:04:17.09
but King Henry--
before he was king,
00:04:17.12\00:04:19.78
you know, escaped later
on and they won the war.
00:04:19.81\00:04:23.69
The Protestant won
the warm the religious war
00:04:23.72\00:04:26.41
but they lost the peace
because when he became king,
00:04:26.44\00:04:30.19
he had to become Catholics
and in becoming catholic,
00:04:30.22\00:04:33.71
first, you know, he
protected the Protestants
00:04:33.74\00:04:36.79
but after they assassinated him.
00:04:36.82\00:04:38.91
And the story is--
00:04:38.94\00:04:40.05
There are too vulturous
time in Europe around there.
00:04:40.08\00:04:42.14
Without any
protocol the Protestant lost
00:04:42.17\00:04:44.76
everything they had
00:04:44.79\00:04:46.27
and they were no
longer Protestant--
00:04:46.30\00:04:48.22
protected until the point
00:04:48.25\00:04:50.16
where they were
declared illegal.
00:04:50.19\00:04:53.05
It was a crime to
become Protestant,
00:04:53.08\00:04:55.15
means there is no longer
any Protestant in France,
00:04:55.18\00:04:57.97
and we will visit, you know--
00:04:58.00\00:04:59.25
It's gonna be
assassinating tour.
00:04:59.28\00:05:01.40
You're reminding
me of something that
00:05:01.43\00:05:02.75
the people tend to forget.
00:05:02.78\00:05:04.40
First of all that our
western democratic model
00:05:04.43\00:05:09.50
is extending all
over the world today.
00:05:09.53\00:05:11.73
It's a very recent vintage,
00:05:11.76\00:05:14.57
it's a relative
anomaly in world history.
00:05:14.60\00:05:17.59
Even the
reformation was brought in,
00:05:17.62\00:05:19.47
lot of these
liberalizing influences
00:05:19.50\00:05:21.36
didn't take immediately,
00:05:21.39\00:05:22.91
they were the wars of religion
for almost 100 years in Europe
00:05:22.94\00:05:27.17
to settle this out.
00:05:27.20\00:05:28.27
In Central Europe you
had the war of 30 years
00:05:28.30\00:05:30.97
which almost destroyed Europe.
00:05:31.00\00:05:32.50
Yeah.
00:05:32.53\00:05:33.61
So it just gives extra reason
to defend religious liberty
00:05:33.64\00:05:37.59
because it's not
a long term thing,
00:05:37.62\00:05:40.65
it's a very fragile
thing, it's been a hard one,
00:05:40.68\00:05:43.22
lot of blood behind it
and we should cherish it.
00:05:43.25\00:05:46.34
And I think it's
a wonderful exercise
00:05:46.37\00:05:47.81
to go back and sort of walk
in the steps of the reformers.
00:05:47.84\00:05:52.14
And not only the reformers,
you know, when we are in Rome,
00:05:52.17\00:05:54.92
we will see what
happened during three centuries
00:05:54.95\00:05:57.83
for the Christians,
they were persecuted.
00:05:57.86\00:06:00.39
Then that's also interesting,
then you had Constantine.
00:06:00.42\00:06:03.82
You know, at
this time Christians
00:06:03.85\00:06:05.44
were about 10%
of the Roman Empire,
00:06:05.47\00:06:08.06
it means
minorities, small minorities,
00:06:08.09\00:06:10.92
influential more and more
but still a small minorities.
00:06:10.95\00:06:14.27
And the emperor, you
know, became Christian.
00:06:14.30\00:06:18.35
Became a patron.
00:06:18.38\00:06:19.90
Yeah, he protected the Christian
00:06:19.93\00:06:21.84
and, you know, he
promulgate the Edict of Milan,
00:06:21.87\00:06:27.18
Christians were
protected like other religion,
00:06:27.21\00:06:29.23
that was religious freedom.
00:06:29.26\00:06:30.46
Wasn't that the Edict of
Nantes that laid behind the,
00:06:30.49\00:06:33.44
remember fell apart with
the Bartholomew massacre?
00:06:33.47\00:06:35.23
Exactly after.
00:06:35.26\00:06:36.89
You know, just
to show you that--
00:06:36.92\00:06:38.27
So the Edict of Milan
put in place constantly.
00:06:38.30\00:06:39.86
You know in this
story, you had time when,
00:06:39.89\00:06:42.02
you've religious freedom now,
00:06:42.05\00:06:43.65
you know, Christians said
after 300 years of persecution,
00:06:43.68\00:06:46.41
now we're free, great, great.
00:06:46.44\00:06:48.45
Then in 380, Christianity became
00:06:48.48\00:06:52.12
the religion of
the Roman Empire,
00:06:52.15\00:06:54.94
the only religion all
other including dissidents
00:06:54.97\00:06:58.60
or not orthodox were persecuted.
00:06:58.63\00:07:01.12
Well, it's
interesting you bring this up
00:07:01.15\00:07:03.20
because one of our associates
once I was talking to him
00:07:03.23\00:07:08.71
and he
maintained that Constantine
00:07:08.74\00:07:10.42
was not a persecutor
which really is nonsense
00:07:10.45\00:07:13.67
when you think on the
barest details of history.
00:07:13.70\00:07:16.48
Very early on
Constantine in anticipation
00:07:16.51\00:07:19.79
of becoming the
ongoing sponsor of Christianity
00:07:19.82\00:07:22.50
called the
church leaders together
00:07:22.53\00:07:24.08
to determine what orthodoxy was.
00:07:24.11\00:07:27.73
They settled down on the trinity
00:07:27.76\00:07:30.30
among other things.
00:07:30.33\00:07:31.62
Once that was done,
00:07:31.65\00:07:33.06
he had them destroy
all of the other books
00:07:33.09\00:07:35.36
that existed, and
then they immediately
00:07:35.39\00:07:37.48
began persecuting the--
00:07:37.51\00:07:40.12
I'm trying to think the word now
00:07:43.38\00:07:45.14
but those they believed that
00:07:45.17\00:07:46.21
there was only one god
not expressed in a trinity.
00:07:46.24\00:07:49.17
There was instant persecution
when Constantine took over.
00:07:49.20\00:07:52.79
And the dissident too,
00:07:52.82\00:07:54.34
and then after you
have the dissidents,
00:07:54.37\00:07:56.85
but you know which
is interesting is first,
00:07:56.88\00:07:59.91
you know, he was really
the protector of the Christian
00:07:59.94\00:08:03.47
till those years in 380
became really a persecutor,
00:08:03.50\00:08:07.28
he started because he had--
00:08:07.31\00:08:09.23
you know, that's
terrible because in fact,
00:08:09.26\00:08:11.39
they are good people.
00:08:11.42\00:08:12.45
You know, they are
really good Christians,
00:08:12.48\00:08:14.17
they pray, they pray,
00:08:14.20\00:08:16.23
you know, they read the Bible,
00:08:16.26\00:08:18.62
they ask for forgiving
for being forgiven and so on,
00:08:18.65\00:08:22.71
but they're terrible
with other and we saw that,
00:08:22.74\00:08:25.41
you will see when we
will visit Aigues-Mortes,
00:08:25.44\00:08:28.61
the city built by Saint
Louis, you know, the great king.
00:08:28.64\00:08:32.41
He was a fabulous Christian,
00:08:32.44\00:08:34.28
but as a great
Christian he had to persecute
00:08:34.31\00:08:37.42
the dissident and the heretic.
00:08:37.45\00:08:39.77
And during this time
people have that in mind,
00:08:39.80\00:08:42.32
you know, if you
are a good Christian,
00:08:42.35\00:08:44.16
you have to persecute
other, you have to destroy them.
00:08:44.19\00:08:47.38
And these-- that
would be their tour,
00:08:47.41\00:08:49.55
you know, we
start with the Roman,
00:08:49.58\00:08:51.25
we will see what happened,
and we will see what happened
00:08:51.28\00:08:53.58
when Christianity
became the only religion
00:08:53.61\00:08:57.41
and during the middle
age and the power of Rome,
00:08:57.44\00:09:01.24
then we will go to Geneva,
00:09:01.27\00:09:03.07
we will talk
about the reformation.
00:09:03.10\00:09:05.04
That's a new hope
for religious freedom.
00:09:05.07\00:09:08.31
But you know
what happened to it?
00:09:08.34\00:09:12.13
All the way along this,
00:09:12.16\00:09:13.38
there's been
bloodshed, persecution,
00:09:13.41\00:09:15.05
intolerance or
hatred of the other
00:09:15.08\00:09:18.98
and it's a
difficult thing, isn't it,
00:09:19.01\00:09:20.96
to enable pure
religious liberty.
00:09:20.99\00:09:23.47
Respect for other people
and keep to cohesion out of it.
00:09:23.50\00:09:27.88
And I know as a
Seventh-day Adventist,
00:09:27.91\00:09:29.30
whenever we're
looking at last day events,
00:09:29.33\00:09:31.58
there's a lot in Revelation
particularly about that.
00:09:31.61\00:09:34.00
It seems to me the keyword
to keep in mind is cohesion,
00:09:34.03\00:09:37.20
if there's cohesion
involved, it's not of God,
00:09:37.23\00:09:40.42
and it's not religious liberty,
00:09:40.45\00:09:41.66
even if you
coerce to a good thing.
00:09:41.69\00:09:43.38
You know, this is
why it's so beautiful,
00:09:43.41\00:09:45.15
this quotation of
Ellen White, you know,
00:09:45.18\00:09:46.99
"The banner of the
truth and religious liberty."
00:09:47.02\00:09:50.32
You know, Calvin in
Geneva, he was a great man.
00:09:50.35\00:09:52.62
He did not want to be a
leader or a politician leader,
00:09:52.65\00:09:55.42
but the other
Protestants needed him
00:09:55.45\00:09:57.87
to establish a
Protestant city and to protect.
00:09:57.90\00:10:01.32
Now they were under the threat,
00:10:01.35\00:10:03.19
you know, it never
happened like that,
00:10:03.22\00:10:04.89
you know, you
don't have a leader
00:10:04.92\00:10:06.65
deciding to be
this time a dictator,
00:10:06.68\00:10:09.39
they have to protect themselves.
00:10:09.42\00:10:10.77
How they can protect?
00:10:10.80\00:10:11.88
Well, it was sort of
under martial law wanted.
00:10:11.91\00:10:13.75
You know, yeah, they
don't want to have enemy
00:10:13.78\00:10:15.74
in their own city,
they have to be careful.
00:10:15.77\00:10:18.60
It means they have to
establish a set of rules
00:10:18.63\00:10:21.11
to make sure that
they will control,
00:10:21.14\00:10:23.43
of course it's temporary
but it works like that.
00:10:23.46\00:10:26.69
And after, you know,
those dissident like Mitchell--
00:10:26.72\00:10:30.27
Michael Servetus.
00:10:30.30\00:10:31.90
He was different,
00:10:31.93\00:10:33.05
Calvin did not want
really to execute them,
00:10:33.08\00:10:35.33
but the pressure
on him were so strong
00:10:35.36\00:10:38.57
coming from the
catholic and Protestant.
00:10:38.60\00:10:40.28
They said that this
is a test of your faith,
00:10:40.31\00:10:43.38
if you're really Christian
you cannot let him free,
00:10:43.41\00:10:46.25
good to go free,
you have to execute him.
00:10:46.28\00:10:48.98
But of course
that was the standard
00:10:49.01\00:10:50.37
at the time in
the prevailing church,
00:10:50.40\00:10:53.81
the Roman Catholic
Church never hesitated
00:10:53.84\00:10:56.30
to deal violently
with its dissidents.
00:10:56.33\00:11:00.79
This is something
that also in the tour
00:11:00.82\00:11:03.59
we will think about, you know,
00:11:03.62\00:11:05.14
as long as you
don't have any power
00:11:05.17\00:11:07.12
you don't have to
deal with these issues.
00:11:07.15\00:11:09.73
You know, when
Christians at the beginning
00:11:09.76\00:11:11.44
they had no power,
they did not have to deal
00:11:11.47\00:11:14.47
but now when you
become prominent in your city
00:11:14.50\00:11:18.43
or in the country
and the city is attacked,
00:11:18.46\00:11:21.72
and you know
that you have enemy,
00:11:21.75\00:11:23.21
they want to
destroy your church,
00:11:23.24\00:11:24.80
they want to destroy you.
00:11:24.83\00:11:26.10
What will be your action?
00:11:26.13\00:11:28.33
Well, it sounds
like another program
00:11:28.36\00:11:30.48
as a Christian
pacifist or a holy warrior,
00:11:30.51\00:11:36.12
its the pretty old question.
00:11:36.15\00:11:37.33
I think you have to go to
Jesus and to follow His example,
00:11:37.36\00:11:40.82
but that means that
you maybe persecuted.
00:11:40.85\00:11:44.40
You may lose every privilege
or advantages you've got.
00:11:44.43\00:11:47.79
And this is
something that I often say
00:11:47.82\00:11:49.72
especially in North America,
00:11:49.75\00:11:51.38
there is a
wonderful privilege to use law
00:11:51.41\00:11:53.41
to buttress your faith,
00:11:53.44\00:11:55.42
but the Bible doesn't promise
a quick escape all the time.
00:11:55.45\00:11:59.46
Jesus said, one of the promises,
00:11:59.49\00:12:01.77
everyone who lives a godly
life will suffer persecution.
00:12:01.80\00:12:06.28
And we do all that
we can to moderate that
00:12:06.31\00:12:09.52
but I think at
the end of the day
00:12:09.55\00:12:10.69
someone that believes
in something is important
00:12:10.72\00:12:13.21
as faith in Christ
and a spiritual faith,
00:12:13.24\00:12:17.65
they need to be prepared
00:12:17.68\00:12:18.87
and many are happy
to suffer for that,
00:12:18.90\00:12:21.66
because you're
proving your faith
00:12:21.69\00:12:24.00
through that experience.
00:12:24.03\00:12:25.52
I don't think we do
people a great privilege
00:12:25.55\00:12:28.27
to remove any
test of their faith.
00:12:28.30\00:12:32.38
A faith that's
proven by difficulties
00:12:32.41\00:12:34.17
is a better faith
and Pastor Monteiro
00:12:34.20\00:12:36.24
we spoke about
in another program,
00:12:36.27\00:12:38.06
I think he exemplifies that.
00:12:38.09\00:12:39.72
Well, that's it,
this is why you know,
00:12:39.75\00:12:41.36
the purpose of religious freedom
00:12:41.39\00:12:43.22
is to show what
kind of God we have,
00:12:43.25\00:12:46.02
and of course to
defend the freedom
00:12:46.05\00:12:48.13
but also to show
that we as a ambassador
00:12:48.16\00:12:51.37
of the kingdom of God,
00:12:51.40\00:12:52.70
we cannot persecute
people who disagree with us
00:12:52.73\00:12:56.46
because God is a God of love
00:12:56.49\00:12:58.61
and we have to
accept the difference
00:12:58.64\00:13:00.95
and even if they disagree,
even if they persecute us,
00:13:00.98\00:13:03.97
but now, you know,
we also human being
00:13:04.00\00:13:06.96
and in some
situation we have to understand
00:13:06.99\00:13:09.88
that people that was
very, very difficult for people.
00:13:09.91\00:13:12.96
Yeah and culturally most served
back in that time than now.
00:13:12.99\00:13:16.79
I think this part
of all of the problems
00:13:16.82\00:13:19.43
of the modern world,
00:13:19.46\00:13:20.60
that idea's got
more currency now
00:13:20.63\00:13:22.83
than back in
that year, wasn't it?
00:13:22.86\00:13:23.89
Yeah.
00:13:23.92\00:13:25.54
And the protestant
reformation had doctrinal
00:13:25.57\00:13:28.60
understandings
that impelled them
00:13:28.63\00:13:31.37
to separate them from Rome,
00:13:31.40\00:13:32.86
but culturally
they were still victims
00:13:32.89\00:13:34.60
to the same models of
behavior on religion compulsion,
00:13:34.63\00:13:38.71
prejudice and so on.
00:13:38.74\00:13:39.87
You're under
attack you have to defend
00:13:39.90\00:13:41.65
and to protect themselves
00:13:41.68\00:13:42.78
but which is
interesting in Geneva,
00:13:42.81\00:13:44.89
we will visit also
the universal declaration,
00:13:44.92\00:13:48.77
the United Nation, you know,
00:13:48.80\00:13:51.39
Council and the
Palais des Nations,
00:13:51.42\00:13:54.64
where a human right is really--
00:13:54.67\00:13:57.11
that is their
capital of human rights.
00:13:57.14\00:13:58.55
Yeah.
00:13:58.58\00:13:59.94
And even know
that the United Nations
00:13:59.97\00:14:01.70
is not a religious
entity, in Washing--
00:14:01.73\00:14:04.02
in New York I think it's good
00:14:04.05\00:14:05.84
that they have that statue
00:14:05.87\00:14:07.67
there with
quotes-- isn't it Ezekiel
00:14:07.70\00:14:09.55
where they'll beat the
swords into plowshares?
00:14:09.58\00:14:11.32
Yeah.
00:14:11.35\00:14:12.47
So they've taken
a religious model
00:14:12.50\00:14:15.32
to justify a secular move
00:14:15.35\00:14:17.18
toward
accommodation and human rights.
00:14:17.21\00:14:19.74
We'll be back
after a short break
00:14:19.77\00:14:21.59
to continue this discussion
00:14:21.62\00:14:23.13
of religious liberty
tour of the old world.
00:14:23.16\00:14:28.51