Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000255B
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00:02 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:05 Before the break with Dr. John Graz, 00:07 we were exalting really over the happy conclusion 00:12 at least to part of the case with Pastor Monteiro in Togo, 00:17 a Seventh-day Adventist worker 00:20 who in the course of his duties was implicated in a horrible, 00:24 over charge of a horrible crime, 00:26 spent two years in jail. 00:28 The church intervened and you went for three times, 00:31 wasn't it or two times? 00:33 In the prison I visited, in the prison three times. 00:35 I went alone there once but-- with send other people. 00:39 Many efforts were put forth on his behalf, 00:41 but it took years and not till the very end 00:44 there was a very much of glimmer of hope. 00:46 It happened suddenly at the end. 00:47 Including the old-- 00:48 the president of our church went there 00:50 and he spoken in the prison too. 00:51 Ted Wilson visited the area. 00:54 The down side of it, 00:56 it is there are two Adventist laymen 00:58 that were actually convicted 01:00 as part of the same accusation right? 01:02 Yeah. 01:03 And you know, that's very sad 01:04 because one of them study in France. 01:06 He was member of a church and he's close to Geneva. 01:10 He was very good at school. 01:12 He got the good diploma and he work there. 01:15 And he did not want to leave 01:17 but he was called by people the government people 01:20 to comeback to his country 01:21 because they wanted to start a new program, 01:24 cell phone and so many was very good in communication. 01:27 And he decided to comeback to his country 01:29 to help his country. 01:31 And he's in prison, 01:32 he has been in prison for more then two years now 01:34 for something which has not been proved really. 01:37 Even if the sentence has been done-- 01:39 They were convicted but no plain test-- 01:43 there was a testimony, 01:44 there's recounted that was central 01:46 but beyond that no evidence, zero evidence. 01:48 Yeah, that's but we hope 01:50 that one day he will be free 01:52 but it shows that, 01:54 you know, how things can happen. 01:56 You know, you have prejudice 01:58 and you have something which happen-- 02:01 they need up to find a guilty people 02:03 because, of course, 02:04 you know when you have rumors 02:07 about people who are kill-- the most of the people ask, 02:12 who are the guilty? 02:13 Why are they are still free? 02:14 Somebody has to be-- 02:15 Somebody has to be arrested. 02:17 It happened almost everywhere, 02:18 you know, and sometime we don't know. 02:20 We believe that it's not the case 02:22 but we know 10 years later 02:25 we know that it happened there too. 02:27 They needed to arrest some people. 02:29 But I think even so far 02:30 this story illustrates very well to me 02:33 and I was on this committee so I see it first hand. 02:35 The church has a concern for members 02:37 even in the most far flown country 02:39 will put forth the best efforts. 02:43 Members around the world because of efforts you made, 02:46 we're united in prayer, writing letters and so on. 02:50 There's only so much we can do. 02:52 All of us need to throw ourselves on God's mercy 02:55 at the end of the day 02:56 and I'm sure God has an eye 02:59 over these men and many others, 03:01 you know, they apostle Paul languished in prison. 03:04 Do you think that he ended his days in prison and? 03:06 You have the two positions. 03:07 You have some people who say 03:08 that we should not do anything about these people 03:12 because we're the general confront, 03:13 the world of chair, the head of the church 03:16 and let the local people to do something. 03:18 And you have people saying that you're not doing enough. 03:21 It means, in the case of Monteiro 03:24 you know we wanted to start earlier 03:26 but the message coming from the local church said, 03:31 the leaders they had said not now 03:33 because he will be free soon, he will be free soon. 03:36 And we have also to work very closely with our leaders 03:40 and we answer their request. 03:43 It means if they say no, 03:44 like, that is the case in some other countries 03:47 where we have people in prison, 03:49 but the local leaders say, no, no, don't do anything, 03:51 you will make our life more difficult. 03:54 I receive a report about religious freedom 03:57 just few hours ago and they answered, 04:01 you know, my correspondent concluded saying that, 04:04 but don't do anything 04:05 because it will make our life more difficult. 04:08 Well, that's the conundrum 04:10 that faces people of faith in many difficult situations 04:14 and yet we're called to witness in adverse situations. 04:17 And I'm not overly sympathetic with that to be honest. 04:19 Yeah. 04:21 Like for example in-- 04:23 well, Pakistan is the primary one. 04:24 We know that there is a broad based 04:26 societal prejudice from the majority Muslims 04:30 toward minority Christians, 04:32 that's not even by law, that just exists. 04:35 Then there's some draconian laws in place. 04:37 Well, the idea that when someone runs fall of the law 04:40 or when they are facing a societal challenge 04:43 that if we say something critical 04:47 or even explanatory of the situation 04:49 that will make it even worse 04:50 for that person on the ground this is the point. 04:52 The battle lines are already drawn in my view. 04:55 But I know even with Liberty Magazine 04:57 at times some people have said, 04:58 oh, you shouldn't write anything. 04:59 Don't put anything there, 05:01 you know, it will just make it worse. 05:03 When the battle lines are drawn, 05:05 unless what you've to avoid is pejorative attacks 05:09 where you're doing it gratuitously 05:12 in a bad intension. 05:13 Of course anyone would be bothered. 05:15 The problem is, you know, 05:17 we're an organized church and it means, 05:20 it's very easy for the government 05:22 to create such a problem for local church 05:26 that it becomes very difficult for us. 05:28 This is why we have to be prudent 05:31 but you know, there are several ways to help people. 05:33 Well, of course but let me ask you a question. 05:35 I know the answer to this, 05:36 but we need say it on this program, 05:38 not particularly with our church 05:40 but civil liberty situations 05:42 and religious liberty situations in particular. 05:45 Think back over the recent decades, 05:48 where the situation ultimately changed for the better. 05:51 Was it changed because it was ignored and allowed, 05:54 it's free rein in the local area? 05:56 Was it because of outside protestations 05:59 and even people that put their lives on the line in the area? 06:03 But the answer is so self evident. 06:06 It's, that's what forces change 06:08 even if that immediate situation 06:10 it may appear to make it even worse. 06:12 And Ellen White, Seventh-day Adventist author 06:14 writing in Great Controversy. 06:16 She says the reformers, 06:17 the Protestant reformers they at times felt 06:19 that they have brought it all down on their heads 06:21 by their actions. 06:22 And yes, immediately they had 06:24 but things were already in a place to do that 06:27 and their very action ultimately drew the teeth 06:31 on the bad situation. 06:32 But you will always, 06:34 you know, the opposite IDs 06:36 that saying that if you do nothing 06:38 things will be solved gradually. 06:40 That is not true. Yeah, that's not true. 06:42 Most of the time that's not true. 06:44 Like I can remember one case that I was told in Australia, 06:47 I went to Yugoslav church during the communist era 06:52 and I met with a couple 06:53 who had gone on their vacation to Yugoslavia 06:55 and I should remember the next old country. 06:57 They were smuggling Sabbath school lessons, 07:00 Bible lessons across the border 07:02 into the neighboring communist country. 07:05 Well, they were stopped by the border guards, 07:07 arrested and interrogated for 10 hours 07:13 and then expelled from the country, 07:15 turned out the local pastors wife 07:17 had informed the authorities. 07:19 And she did that because she thought 07:21 that their action would turn the authorities against them. 07:24 That they had a certain low level freedom, 07:26 but that's a fallacy. 07:28 We had these-- 07:29 you know, we had this experience 07:31 in some other country too. 07:32 You know, the fact is you have to be pretend 07:34 because you don't want to create too much problem-- 07:37 Absolute. We're not people-- 07:38 We're people who are living there. 07:39 Yes. 07:40 But when people ask us, 07:42 but sometime as you say they can not ask 07:44 because they don't know how to ask and so on. 07:47 It means you can not say that, 07:49 if they don't ask there is no problem. 07:51 Now there is a problem, 07:52 we have brothers and sisters in prison. 07:54 And now we've to think how we can help. 07:57 Of course, we have to do our best 07:58 to avoid to create problem. 08:00 You know, in the case where we mentioned 08:03 it was not a problem for religious freedom, 08:05 it was more a problem prejudice. 08:07 But you know, our people there 08:09 should have been more active in the bringing-- 08:12 you know, in building relations with officials 08:15 because if you're not now 08:17 because you don't do anything-- 08:19 you have no relation at whole with the community, 08:23 we've the officials with the government, 08:25 they don't you. 08:26 You are not interested. 08:27 You know, when people 08:29 don't have relations with the authorities, 08:32 I don't see to be-- I don't talk about complicity, 08:35 I talk about religion. Yeah, they are more vulnerable. 08:36 And what does it mean? It means you're not interested. 08:39 You are not interested by the community. 08:42 It means you're strange people because you're not interested. 08:45 I mean, that's something we should really realize. 08:48 And in this case the you and other world leaders 08:51 were in the position to, 08:52 to make contacts that they couldn't at that time. 08:55 Yeah, this is what. 08:56 There was even financial help in essence 08:59 that they were not capable to provide. 09:00 And this is why when we have an event, 09:02 you know, we lead people to the authorities 09:04 and to talk with them and to talk about 09:06 what we're doing and they see us differently. 09:09 When we invite minister or ambassador 09:12 at the General Conference, 09:13 it's the same, you know, 09:15 people will see what we are doing. 09:16 They change their mind. It's a very good meetings. 09:19 I'm still on a high. 09:20 You've the Australian ambassador there. 09:22 We had a protocol lunch for them 09:24 and I've a follow up interview with him. 09:26 But it was wonderful to hear him. 09:28 In fact he fairly spontaneously 09:30 gave an analysis of how his country 09:33 and the United States treat religious freedom. 09:36 We created or we encouraged an awareness 09:40 on this representative of this country 09:42 of religious freedom and he had to explain himself. 09:45 Yeah. Give me one minute. 09:47 Exactly when ambassadors or delegation 09:51 we receive many delegations from different countries. 09:53 Most of the time from country 09:55 where we don't have religious freedom. 09:56 When they see what we are doing, 09:59 when they have a global vision it changed their mind. 10:02 Yeah. 10:03 No, no, this is a privilege 10:04 I think that you can be involved 10:06 with such a thing as thing. 10:07 And this is right. And it's gonna continue right. 10:08 This is gonna be as an ongoing committee. 10:09 Yeah, exactly. 10:10 This is why, you know, we should think. 10:13 Even if there is no publicity we should think and pray 10:16 for those who are in prison, 10:17 for those who are suffering for their faith 10:20 because they should know in one way or another 10:23 that they are not alone, 10:24 they are million brothers and sisters 10:26 with them praying for them. 10:29 Coming back from one of his missionary tours, 10:32 the apostle Paul stopped off in Caesarea, 10:35 met with the believers and then was shocked 10:38 when the Prophet Agabus bound his own hands 10:41 with Paul's belt and he says, you go to Jerusalem, 10:43 he says, you're gonna be bound like this. 10:46 The members were disconcerted, 10:48 of course didn't want him to be put in prison, 10:51 but he said, don't cry. 10:52 He says, I'm willing and ready to go to prison. 10:55 I think about that a lot 10:57 when we discuss different believers 10:59 and in particular Seventh-day Adventists 11:02 who suffer and are imprisoned, 11:04 if not for their faith because of their faith 11:06 as a compounding element 11:08 they suffer and have to remain faithful 11:11 even behind prison bars. 11:12 This has been the story with Pastor Monteiro, 11:17 a Seventh-day Adventist worker in Togo, Africa, 11:20 who was sucked into an incredible criminal situation 11:23 that he was clearly innocent off, not guilty, 11:27 but because of his faith 11:29 and the prejudice that kicked in, 11:31 he found himself behind bars and faced with the situation. 11:34 Did he except it like the other prisoners 11:37 or did he witness and take powerful advantage of it 11:40 in witnessing and praising the Lord 11:42 that perhaps this imprisonment was for some purpose 11:45 to advance the knowledge of God. 11:48 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-01-15