Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with Dr. John Graz,
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we were exalting really
over the happy conclusion
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at least to part of the case
with Pastor Monteiro in Togo,
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a Seventh-day Adventist worker
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who in the course of his duties
was implicated in a horrible,
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over charge of a horrible crime,
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spent two years in jail.
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The church intervened
and you went for three times,
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wasn't it or two times?
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In the prison I visited,
in the prison three times.
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I went alone there once
but-- with send other people.
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Many efforts were
put forth on his behalf,
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but it took years
and not till the very end
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there was a very
much of glimmer of hope.
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It happened suddenly at the end.
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Including the old--
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the president of
our church went there
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and he spoken in the prison too.
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Ted Wilson visited the area.
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The down side of it,
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it is there are
two Adventist laymen
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that were actually convicted
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as part of the
same accusation right?
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Yeah.
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And you know, that's very sad
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because one of
them study in France.
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He was member of a
church and he's close to Geneva.
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He was very good at school.
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He got the good
diploma and he work there.
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And he did not want to leave
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but he was called by
people the government people
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to comeback to his country
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because they wanted
to start a new program,
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cell phone and so many was
very good in communication.
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And he decided to
comeback to his country
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to help his country.
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And he's in prison,
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he has been in prison
for more then two years now
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for something which
has not been proved really.
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Even if the
sentence has been done--
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They were
convicted but no plain test--
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there was a testimony,
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there's
recounted that was central
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but beyond that no
evidence, zero evidence.
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Yeah, that's but we hope
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that one day he will be free
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but it shows that,
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you know, how things can happen.
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You know, you have prejudice
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and you have
something which happen--
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they need up to
find a guilty people
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because, of course,
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you know when you have rumors
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about people who are kill--
the most of the people ask,
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who are the guilty?
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Why are they are still free?
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Somebody has to be--
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Somebody has to be arrested.
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It happened almost everywhere,
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you know, and
sometime we don't know.
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We believe that
it's not the case
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but we know 10 years later
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we know that it
happened there too.
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They needed to
arrest some people.
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But I think even so far
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this story
illustrates very well to me
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and I was on this committee
so I see it first hand.
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The church has a
concern for members
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even in the most
far flown country
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will put forth the best efforts.
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Members around the world
because of efforts you made,
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we're united in prayer,
writing letters and so on.
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There's only so much we can do.
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All of us need to throw
ourselves on God's mercy
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at the end of the day
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and I'm sure God has an eye
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over these men and many others,
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you know, they apostle
Paul languished in prison.
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Do you think that he
ended his days in prison and?
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You have the two positions.
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You have some people who say
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that we should not do
anything about these people
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because we're
the general confront,
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the world of chair,
the head of the church
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and let the local
people to do something.
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And you have people saying
that you're not doing enough.
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It means, in
the case of Monteiro
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you know we
wanted to start earlier
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but the message coming
from the local church said,
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the leaders
they had said not now
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because he will be free
soon, he will be free soon.
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And we have also to work
very closely with our leaders
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and we answer their request.
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It means if they say no,
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like, that is the case
in some other countries
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where we have people in prison,
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but the local leaders
say, no, no, don't do anything,
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you will make our
life more difficult.
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I receive a report
about religious freedom
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just few hours
ago and they answered,
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you know, my correspondent
concluded saying that,
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but don't do anything
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because it will make
our life more difficult.
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Well, that's the conundrum
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that faces people of faith
in many difficult situations
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and yet we're called to
witness in adverse situations.
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And I'm not overly sympathetic
with that to be honest.
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Yeah.
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Like for example in--
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well, Pakistan
is the primary one.
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We know that
there is a broad based
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societal prejudice
from the majority Muslims
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toward minority Christians,
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that's not even by
law, that just exists.
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Then there's some
draconian laws in place.
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Well, the idea that when
someone runs fall of the law
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or when they are
facing a societal challenge
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that if we say
something critical
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or even
explanatory of the situation
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that will make it even worse
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for that person on the
ground this is the point.
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The battle lines are
already drawn in my view.
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But I know even
with Liberty Magazine
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at times some people have said,
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oh, you
shouldn't write anything.
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Don't put anything there,
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you know, it will
just make it worse.
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When the battle lines are drawn,
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unless what you've to
avoid is pejorative attacks
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where you're
doing it gratuitously
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in a bad intension.
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Of course anyone
would be bothered.
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The problem is, you know,
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we're an organized
church and it means,
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it's very easy
for the government
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to create such a
problem for local church
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that it becomes
very difficult for us.
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This is why we
have to be prudent
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but you know, there are
several ways to help people.
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Well, of course but
let me ask you a question.
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I know the answer to this,
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but we need say
it on this program,
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not particularly with our church
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but civil liberty situations
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and religious liberty
situations in particular.
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Think back over
the recent decades,
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where the situation ultimately
changed for the better.
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Was it changed because
it was ignored and allowed,
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it's free rein
in the local area?
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Was it because of
outside protestations
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and even people that put their
lives on the line in the area?
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But the answer
is so self evident.
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It's, that's what forces change
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even if that immediate situation
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it may appear to
make it even worse.
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And Ellen White,
Seventh-day Adventist author
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writing in Great Controversy.
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She says the reformers,
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the Protestant
reformers they at times felt
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that they have brought
it all down on their heads
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by their actions.
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And yes, immediately they had
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but things were
already in a place to do that
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and their very action
ultimately drew the teeth
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on the bad situation.
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But you will always,
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you know, the opposite IDs
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that saying that
if you do nothing
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things will be solved gradually.
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That is not true.
Yeah, that's not true.
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Most of the
time that's not true.
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Like I can remember one case
that I was told in Australia,
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I went to Yugoslav
church during the communist era
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and I met with a couple
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who had gone on their
vacation to Yugoslavia
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and I should
remember the next old country.
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They were smuggling
Sabbath school lessons,
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Bible lessons across the border
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into the
neighboring communist country.
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Well, they were
stopped by the border guards,
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arrested and
interrogated for 10 hours
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and then
expelled from the country,
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turned out the
local pastors wife
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had informed the authorities.
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And she did that
because she thought
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that their action would turn
the authorities against them.
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That they had a
certain low level freedom,
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but that's a fallacy.
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We had these--
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you know, we had this experience
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in some other country too.
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You know, the fact is
you have to be pretend
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because you don't want
to create too much problem--
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Absolute. We're not people--
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We're people who
are living there.
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Yes.
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But when people ask us,
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but sometime as you
say they can not ask
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because they don't
know how to ask and so on.
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It means you can not say that,
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if they don't ask
there is no problem.
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Now there is a problem,
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we have brothers
and sisters in prison.
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And now we've to
think how we can help.
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Of course, we
have to do our best
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to avoid to create problem.
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You know, in the
case where we mentioned
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it was not a problem
for religious freedom,
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it was more a problem prejudice.
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But you know, our people there
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should have been more
active in the bringing--
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you know, in building
relations with officials
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because if you're not now
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because you don't do anything--
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you have no relation at
whole with the community,
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we've the officials
with the government,
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they don't you.
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You are not interested.
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You know, when people
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don't have relations
with the authorities,
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I don't see to be-- I
don't talk about complicity,
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I talk about religion.
Yeah, they are more vulnerable.
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And what does it mean? It
means you're not interested.
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You are not
interested by the community.
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It means you're strange people
because you're not interested.
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I mean, that's something
we should really realize.
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And in this case the
you and other world leaders
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were in the position to,
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to make contacts that
they couldn't at that time.
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Yeah, this is what.
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There was even
financial help in essence
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that they were not
capable to provide.
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And this is why
when we have an event,
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you know, we lead
people to the authorities
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and to talk with
them and to talk about
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what we're doing and
they see us differently.
00:09:06.76\00:09:09.93
When we invite
minister or ambassador
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at the General Conference,
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it's the same, you know,
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people will see
what we are doing.
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They change their mind.
It's a very good meetings.
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I'm still on a high.
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You've the
Australian ambassador there.
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We had a protocol lunch for them
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and I've a follow
up interview with him.
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But it was
wonderful to hear him.
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In fact he fairly spontaneously
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gave an analysis
of how his country
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and the United States
treat religious freedom.
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We created or we
encouraged an awareness
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on this
representative of this country
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of religious freedom and
he had to explain himself.
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Yeah. Give me one minute.
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Exactly when
ambassadors or delegation
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we receive many delegations
from different countries.
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Most of the time from country
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where we don't
have religious freedom.
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When they see what we are doing,
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when they have a global
vision it changed their mind.
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Yeah.
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No, no, this is a privilege
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I think that you can be involved
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with such a thing as thing.
00:10:06.11\00:10:07.14
And this is right. And
it's gonna continue right.
00:10:07.17\00:10:08.64
This is gonna be as
an ongoing committee.
00:10:08.67\00:10:09.70
Yeah, exactly.
00:10:09.73\00:10:10.76
This is why, you
know, we should think.
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Even if there is no publicity
we should think and pray
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for those who are in prison,
00:10:16.52\00:10:17.71
for those who are
suffering for their faith
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because they should
know in one way or another
00:10:20.52\00:10:23.16
that they are not alone,
00:10:23.19\00:10:24.36
they are million
brothers and sisters
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with them praying for them.
00:10:26.31\00:10:29.84
Coming back from one
of his missionary tours,
00:10:29.87\00:10:32.77
the apostle Paul
stopped off in Caesarea,
00:10:32.80\00:10:35.80
met with the
believers and then was shocked
00:10:35.83\00:10:38.91
when the Prophet
Agabus bound his own hands
00:10:38.94\00:10:41.62
with Paul's belt and he
says, you go to Jerusalem,
00:10:41.65\00:10:43.83
he says, you're
gonna be bound like this.
00:10:43.86\00:10:46.27
The members were disconcerted,
00:10:46.30\00:10:48.17
of course didn't want
him to be put in prison,
00:10:48.20\00:10:50.99
but he said, don't cry.
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He says, I'm willing
and ready to go to prison.
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I think about that a lot
00:10:55.64\00:10:57.47
when we discuss
different believers
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and in particular
Seventh-day Adventists
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who suffer and are imprisoned,
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if not for their
faith because of their faith
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as a compounding element
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they suffer and
have to remain faithful
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even behind prison bars.
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This has been the
story with Pastor Monteiro,
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a Seventh-day Adventist
worker in Togo, Africa,
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who was sucked into an
incredible criminal situation
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that he was clearly
innocent off, not guilty,
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but because of his faith
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and the
prejudice that kicked in,
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he found himself behind bars
and faced with the situation.
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Did he except it
like the other prisoners
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or did he witness and
take powerful advantage of it
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in witnessing
and praising the Lord
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that perhaps this imprisonment
was for some purpose
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to advance the knowledge of God.
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For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
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