Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000255A
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00:14 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:17 This is the program that brings you news, 00:19 views, discussion, up to date information 00:21 on religious liberty. 00:23 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine 00:27 and my guest on this program, 00:28 Dr. John Graz, Secretary General 00:31 of the International Religious Liberty Association or EARLA. 00:35 Yeah, pleasure to be with you, Lincoln. 00:39 You know, we've talked over 00:40 many things in the years gone by and on this program, 00:45 but I want to talk about something 00:46 that's of immediate interest to us. 00:49 You and I are on a committee for persecuted members 00:52 and I know many times we have met troubling ourselves 00:56 and trying to find a solution 00:57 to a very immediate and real problem, 01:00 a Seventh-day Adventist minister in jail, 01:02 it seemed indefinite at one point. 01:05 Not directly because of his faith. 01:08 There was a criminal charge that we thought was not correct 01:14 but as it developed very quickly, 01:16 his faith came into play. 01:19 In some ways the prejudice against the church 01:22 in the area came into play 01:25 and yet it's turned out wonderfully. 01:27 Tell us a little bit about the story of Pastor Monteiro. 01:30 Pastor Monteiro, you know, the good news 01:32 is just a few weeks ago we were together 01:35 and now he is free with his family 01:37 and he is speaking in many churches 01:39 to explain his extraordinary story, 01:41 but very sad in some ways 01:43 because you have still people in prison there. 01:46 And it happened, you know, he wanted to help someone, 01:49 someone who has been baptized in prison. 01:52 Now we better say where this is. 01:53 This was in Togo. 01:54 A very little country on the west coast of Africa. 01:58 Close to Ghana. Next to Ghana. 02:00 It's a country of only six million people. 02:02 Yeah, and... 02:04 Half of them animist still, then a mixture of Islam, 02:06 Christianity and so on. 02:08 Yeah, and a strong power there and he wanted to help someone 02:13 who has been arrested several times 02:16 and this guy who has been arrested was arrested again 02:20 and he was accused of raping 02:21 and after he was accused of being part of a kind of gang 02:26 who kidnapped young girl. 02:28 Killing and draining the blood of young women. 02:30 I think nine young women were involved. 02:32 Yeah, but you know that's a very, very difficult thing. 02:34 A bizarre thing. Bizarre, bizarre 'cause... 02:35 Zero evidence. 02:36 Yeah, no evidence at all. 02:37 Nothing whatsoever at any point up to the arrest, trial. 02:42 There was never any, any evidence, 02:44 not even circumstantial evidence. 02:46 Even this person that he contacted him 02:48 come to the church for help. 02:50 When he was arrested, 02:51 I think they probably tortured him 02:53 and he named some people he knew 02:54 and he mentioned Pastor Monteiro, 02:55 and then religious prejudice kicked in. 02:58 That's how I see it. 02:59 Yeah, because they have to justify 03:00 what you are doing with the blood. 03:02 And you know the guy said that the blood, 03:05 and the blood and the rumors 03:07 and so on that entered this church, 03:09 you know, they use the blood for secret ceremony 03:12 that was said, you know, secret ceremony, 03:15 but fortunately it did not last too long. 03:17 People realized, the officials 03:20 and the newspaper realized that that doesn't work. 03:24 But you know in the context of the country, 03:27 that's not something which is totally stranded. 03:30 It mean it can happen and it's not something 03:32 which is, no, it cannot happen. 03:34 No, it's tied up to the animist ceremony. 03:37 Yeah, many things and he was arrested you can imagine. 03:41 You have nothing to do 03:42 with what you're accused, you're arrested, 03:45 you don't even know why you are arrested. 03:47 Put in jail during 15 days 03:49 he was into cell, he was beaten. 03:52 That was terrible. 03:53 Then he was transferred to the prison. 03:56 I met him three times. 03:57 I went to the prison 03:59 and I preached him even in a prison. 04:01 And he was there for almost two years 04:04 and he was declared 04:05 just at the beginning of January, 2014. 04:09 He was declared by the court as totally innocent. 04:14 And fortunately now he is free, 04:15 but some other people are still in prison 04:18 and we try to do our best to help them 04:21 but they have been sentenced for a life in prison. 04:25 It is very important that we remember 04:29 not just Pastor Monteiro who it's turned out 04:31 well for him, but there are others. 04:33 This is an ongoing challenge for us to vindicate people. 04:37 In several countries including Pakistan 04:39 and somewhere people are in prison 04:40 and they did nothing, really nothing. 04:43 There is no proof but for one reason 04:45 and another one, they are in prison. 04:47 And they may stay years and years. 04:50 But you know it also led us to imagine 04:55 what could happen to us one day or another. 04:58 You never, you cannot say, well, 05:01 I will be protected from this kind of thing. 05:04 We are living in an imperfect non perfect world. 05:07 And you can imagine the suffering of people 05:11 being arrested putting you in jail with other people. 05:14 The hygiene is very, very poor. 05:17 Everything is poor. You can be sick at any moment. 05:20 You can be killed in a prison. 05:22 And for what? For nothing. 05:24 You don't know why you are in prison. 05:25 You were in that prison in Togo of all that I've heard 05:28 from you and others 05:29 is the prison is not a place you want to be, 05:32 but it's a structure that's guarded 05:35 on the outside by the guards. 05:36 But when you go in the door, it's run by the prisoners, 05:40 they feed themselves with food handed them 05:42 from relatives and so on. 05:43 But it's pretty much a self governing 05:46 little criminal world. 05:47 Yeah, and of course you have to pay 05:49 for almost everything but you know that's 05:52 the positive side I should say that. 05:53 Well, they try to be negative if the prisoners don't like. 05:57 But one positive side is your wife can come everyday 06:01 and give you food because if not you die. 06:04 And the negative side is that the hygiene is so poor 06:08 that you can die at any moment. 06:09 And if you are sick, the chance for you to be 06:13 to recover are really, really very small. 06:17 No, that's not the good way but there are countries 06:20 where if you talk about what you believe, 06:24 it could be interpreted as an insult 06:27 against the national religion 06:29 or the leader of the national religion... 06:31 Or national security. On national security. 06:34 And this is the law on blasphemy 06:37 and the law on apostasy. 06:39 If you talk, you share what you believe, 06:41 someone follow what you believe, they can be arrested. 06:44 Well, you're not just talking theoretically, 06:46 what you're saying now applies to Canada-- 06:47 Sentenced to death. 06:49 Not to Canada, to Pakistan. 06:52 Pakistan it's the death sentence 06:56 typically to malign Islam, 06:58 which off course is acquitted with the state? 07:00 Yeah, exactly. 07:01 And maligning it can be very mild 07:04 and implied insult like there were these-- 07:09 I've mentioned on this program before. 07:10 Two brothers in Pakistan 07:12 buying ice cream from a street vendor 07:14 and they wanted to use the plate 07:15 that other Muslims would use and of course they were refused 07:18 and they said you've insulted Islam. 07:20 They got 25 years for that. 07:22 Oh, yeah, that's many, many example like that 07:25 where you know you have a beautiful house. 07:28 You are Christian or you have another religion 07:31 which is not the state religion 07:33 and people want to take your house 07:35 and they will say that you have insulted our religion. 07:39 Now the time it will take to prove that it's not true. 07:42 You may be arrested or you may be assassinated by radicals. 07:47 And which is also a problem in some countries that 07:50 it's so much integrated in the culture 07:53 that 90 percent of the population 07:55 are in favor of such a law. 07:57 And you know when they kill in Pakistan, 08:00 when they kill the Muslim leader 08:02 or the governor of Punjab you know they killed them. 08:06 Thousand and thousand people 08:07 demonstrated saying that they did well, 08:09 the one who did that that the bodyguard did well. 08:13 Thank you for the bodyguard to kill this people. 08:16 Yeah. He was applauded for Islam. 08:18 Yeah, applauded and you can imagine now 08:20 the life of the religious minorities there. 08:22 You have to think about, 08:24 be careful about what I talk about, 08:26 be careful about what I do. 08:28 And it's true. 08:29 Religious minorities on this program 08:31 had an Ahmadiyya Muslim cleric, 08:34 who points out that in Pakistan the Ahmadiyya Muslims 08:37 even perhaps more than Christians 08:39 in Pakistan are persecuted, fined, imprisoned 08:43 and sometimes executed just because of their faith. 08:46 They don't even have to do anything with it. 08:48 And it is in the law. 08:49 You know, they are not recognizing the law 08:51 and they are persecuted according to the law. 08:53 Not even citizenship rights in America. 08:55 Yeah that's incredible. 08:56 Well, this is what happened in our world today. 08:58 Now, I don't want to throw something in 08:59 and you know perhaps it's overreached 09:01 but I think not as a solitary example. 09:04 Even in the United States whether it's practical 09:07 religious liberty on ongoing basis. 09:09 President Obama not to long ago 09:12 in the ongoing efforts against terrorism announced 09:15 that he said that this way, the government has people 09:18 that they believe are involved with terrorism, 09:23 antigovernment activities. 09:24 But they have no evidence. 09:25 Not enough evidence to try them. 09:27 And they will be now detained indefinitely. 09:30 I don't believe he meant anything bad about 09:32 but that sort of dynamic easily translates 09:37 into whoever the government of today 09:39 thinks is an enemy or is antithetical 09:41 to their purposes, they round them up. 09:42 And in many countries that translates 09:45 very easily to religious out there. 09:47 They're seen as dangerous, so with that sort of a law. 09:51 Not now but that easily could translate 09:53 into people with the divergent 09:55 religious view could be cast as terrorists, 09:59 enemies of the state. 10:00 This is why, you know, when we pass a law, 10:03 this kind of restrictive law which as you said the intension 10:06 is really to protect citizen in the country, 10:09 but we have always to think about the consequences 10:12 and how the law will be implemented 10:15 and who will implement it, because you know 10:18 a law can be manipulated and you can use the law against 10:22 and you can use the law against your enemy. 10:24 To one degree or another all political factions 10:27 in any country manipulate it. 10:29 Hopefully not illegally but I mean there's a bias. 10:33 They want to keep their faction in power. 10:35 They have an inherent bias because they stand 10:38 for this political viewpoint 10:40 and they look differently at the other. 10:42 So when you have a law that enables them to act on that, 10:45 it can be very troublesome. 10:46 And coming back to Monteiro. 10:48 You know, we organized a big, we organized a big campaign. 10:52 We ask the people around the world 10:54 to send cards for Christmas. 10:58 And we send prayer, you know, people were asked 11:02 to pray and so on and finally you receive 11:04 thousand and thousand letter and he said that was so happy. 11:07 They actually arrived in bags at the prison. 11:10 Yes, they arrived in bag at the prison. 11:12 Its a wonderful thing. 11:13 And then all people say that it's incredible, 11:15 you know, why you are receiving all these letter? 11:17 You know the message we wanted to show that, 11:20 you know, when a brother is in prison, 11:22 yeah, he has million and million 11:24 brothers and sisters around the world 11:27 who are praying for them 11:29 and doing their best to help them. 11:30 Prayers are not inconsequential. 11:32 We have to believe the Bible says, 11:34 "A God, He is the prayer of the righteous man." 11:36 And you know the story that I thought 11:38 of on their committing before and that was you say it again. 11:40 Remember, Peter was imprisoned 11:42 and the believers gathered to pray for his release. 11:44 Even when he was released they didn't quite believe it, 11:47 but God does providentially release. 11:50 And I think while we work through the legal system, 11:52 I think these elements of Monteiro's eventual release 11:55 that show God's providence. 11:57 Yeah, and you know that was-- you need to be patient 12:00 and Monteiro did such a beautiful work in the prison. 12:04 His testimony was fabulous. 12:06 You know, he gave every, almost every day Bible studies. 12:09 He reached even the former minister 12:10 of the government to give Bible studies to them. 12:13 He was respected by all prisoner. 12:16 He said that when he had to go to the shower 12:18 which was almost a luxury to go there. 12:21 He was protected by five prisoners. 12:23 They say, no, we don't want something happen to you. 12:27 He was-- you know, when he spoke, 12:30 he has people coming. 12:31 A prisoner came in to listen to him, 12:33 that was a fabulous and I think he will let 12:36 such a beautiful testimony in prison but still you know 12:38 you have to be patient because when we visited him, 12:44 you know, the lawyers said to us 12:46 in two days he will be free, 12:48 then after in three days he will be free. 12:50 Oh, next week and next month 12:53 and that next year and it was so long, so long. 12:57 And eventually you have to be very strong, 12:59 but Monteiro said he never, never felt he was alone. 13:03 He had always the presence of God with him. 13:06 And that is an awareness that we need to pass 13:08 on through this program. 13:10 Around the world there are others Seventh-day Adventists 13:13 but just as importantly there are the Christians, 13:15 there are the people of deeply held faith 13:18 who are suffering and imprisoned for their faith. 13:20 We need to keep that in mind 13:21 and even in a country as free as United States 13:24 or Australia where I'm from, not a good dynamic 13:28 to just rest on your hands, well, we are free. 13:29 But there's always someone suffering 13:32 and we need to keep them in mind. 13:34 And that is important to remember 13:35 that there are places around the world 13:37 where just because people are different, 13:40 they have another belief and they are persecuted. 13:43 That would be easy for them 13:44 to say, okay, you know, I recant. 13:47 Why these people especially in some country 13:49 Christian are poor people? 13:51 Why they just said, okay, you know, 13:53 I want to be like other people? 13:55 Why my life should become miserable because of my faith 14:00 but they are strong in their faith. 14:01 That's true and I think in the west 14:03 we are sometimes guilty of saying you come, 14:05 take up this faith become Seventh-day Adventist, 14:08 become a Christian and life will improve for you, 14:10 not always not here in now. 14:12 It spiritually improves 14:13 and the promise of the future is wonderful. 14:15 We'll be back after a short break 14:17 to continue this discussion 14:18 of the great experience of Pastor Monteiro, 14:21 but we'll talk a little bit more broadly about 14:23 what it means to stand for your faith. |
Revised 2015-01-01