Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you news,
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views, discussion,
up to date information
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on religious liberty.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on this program,
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Dr. John Graz, Secretary General
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of the International Religious
Liberty Association or EARLA.
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Yeah, pleasure to
be with you, Lincoln.
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You know, we've talked over
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many things in the years
gone by and on this program,
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but I want to
talk about something
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that's of
immediate interest to us.
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You and I are on a
committee for persecuted members
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and I know many times we
have met troubling ourselves
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and trying to find a solution
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to a very
immediate and real problem,
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a Seventh-day
Adventist minister in jail,
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it seemed
indefinite at one point.
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Not directly
because of his faith.
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There was a criminal charge
that we thought was not correct
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but as it
developed very quickly,
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his faith came into play.
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In some ways the
prejudice against the church
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in the area came into play
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and yet it's
turned out wonderfully.
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Tell us a little bit about
the story of Pastor Monteiro.
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Pastor Monteiro,
you know, the good news
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is just a few weeks
ago we were together
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and now he is
free with his family
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and he is
speaking in many churches
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to explain his
extraordinary story,
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but very sad in some ways
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because you have still
people in prison there.
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And it happened, you
know, he wanted to help someone,
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someone who has
been baptized in prison.
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Now we better say where this is.
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This was in Togo.
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A very little country on
the west coast of Africa.
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Close to Ghana. Next to Ghana.
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It's a country of
only six million people.
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Yeah, and...
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Half of them animist
still, then a mixture of Islam,
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Christianity and so on.
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Yeah, and a strong power there
and he wanted to help someone
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who has been
arrested several times
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and this guy who has been
arrested was arrested again
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and he was accused of raping
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and after he was accused of
being part of a kind of gang
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who kidnapped young girl.
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Killing and draining
the blood of young women.
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I think nine young
women were involved.
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Yeah, but you know that's
a very, very difficult thing.
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A bizarre thing.
Bizarre, bizarre 'cause...
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Zero evidence.
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Yeah, no evidence at all.
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Nothing whatsoever at any
point up to the arrest, trial.
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There was never
any, any evidence,
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not even
circumstantial evidence.
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Even this person
that he contacted him
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come to the church for help.
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When he was arrested,
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I think they
probably tortured him
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and he named some people he knew
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and he
mentioned Pastor Monteiro,
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and then religious
prejudice kicked in.
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That's how I see it.
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Yeah, because
they have to justify
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what you are
doing with the blood.
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And you know the
guy said that the blood,
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and the blood and the rumors
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and so on that
entered this church,
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you know, they use the
blood for secret ceremony
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that was said, you
know, secret ceremony,
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but fortunately it
did not last too long.
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People realized, the officials
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and the newspaper
realized that that doesn't work.
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But you know in the
context of the country,
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that's not something
which is totally stranded.
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It mean it can happen
and it's not something
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which is, no, it cannot happen.
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No, it's tied up to
the animist ceremony.
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Yeah, many things and he
was arrested you can imagine.
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You have nothing to do
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with what you're
accused, you're arrested,
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you don't even know
why you are arrested.
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Put in jail during 15 days
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he was into cell, he was beaten.
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That was terrible.
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Then he was
transferred to the prison.
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I met him three times.
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I went to the prison
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and I preached
him even in a prison.
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And he was there
for almost two years
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and he was declared
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just at the
beginning of January, 2014.
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He was declared by the
court as totally innocent.
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And fortunately now he is free,
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but some other
people are still in prison
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and we try to do
our best to help them
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but they have been
sentenced for a life in prison.
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It is very
important that we remember
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not just Pastor
Monteiro who it's turned out
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well for him,
but there are others.
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This is an ongoing challenge
for us to vindicate people.
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In several
countries including Pakistan
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and somewhere
people are in prison
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and they did
nothing, really nothing.
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There is no proof
but for one reason
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and another one,
they are in prison.
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And they may
stay years and years.
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But you know it
also led us to imagine
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what could happen to
us one day or another.
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You never, you cannot say, well,
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I will be protected
from this kind of thing.
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We are living in an
imperfect non perfect world.
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And you can imagine
the suffering of people
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being arrested putting
you in jail with other people.
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The hygiene is very, very poor.
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Everything is poor. You
can be sick at any moment.
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You can be killed in a prison.
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And for what? For nothing.
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You don't know
why you are in prison.
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You were in that prison in
Togo of all that I've heard
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from you and others
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is the prison is not
a place you want to be,
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but it's a
structure that's guarded
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on the outside by the guards.
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But when you go in the
door, it's run by the prisoners,
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they feed themselves
with food handed them
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from relatives and so on.
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But it's pretty
much a self governing
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little criminal world.
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Yeah, and of
course you have to pay
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for almost
everything but you know that's
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the positive side
I should say that.
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Well, they try to be negative
if the prisoners don't like.
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But one positive side is
your wife can come everyday
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and give you food
because if not you die.
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And the negative side is
that the hygiene is so poor
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that you can die at any moment.
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And if you are sick,
the chance for you to be
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to recover are
really, really very small.
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No, that's not the good
way but there are countries
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where if you talk
about what you believe,
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it could be
interpreted as an insult
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against the national religion
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or the leader of
the national religion...
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Or national
security. On national security.
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And this is the law on blasphemy
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and the law on apostasy.
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If you talk, you
share what you believe,
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someone follow what you
believe, they can be arrested.
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Well, you're not just
talking theoretically,
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what you're saying
now applies to Canada--
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Sentenced to death.
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Not to Canada, to Pakistan.
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Pakistan it's the death sentence
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typically to malign Islam,
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which off course is
acquitted with the state?
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Yeah, exactly.
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And maligning
it can be very mild
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and implied insult
like there were these--
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I've mentioned on
this program before.
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Two brothers in Pakistan
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buying ice cream
from a street vendor
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and they wanted to use the plate
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that other Muslims would use
and of course they were refused
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and they said
you've insulted Islam.
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They got 25 years for that.
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Oh, yeah, that's
many, many example like that
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where you know you
have a beautiful house.
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You are Christian or
you have another religion
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which is not the state religion
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and people want
to take your house
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and they will say that you
have insulted our religion.
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Now the time it will take
to prove that it's not true.
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You may be arrested or you
may be assassinated by radicals.
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And which is also a
problem in some countries that
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it's so much
integrated in the culture
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that 90 percent
of the population
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are in favor of such a law.
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And you know when
they kill in Pakistan,
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when they kill the Muslim leader
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or the governor of Punjab
you know they killed them.
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Thousand and thousand people
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demonstrated
saying that they did well,
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the one who did that
that the bodyguard did well.
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Thank you for the
bodyguard to kill this people.
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Yeah. He was
applauded for Islam.
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Yeah, applauded
and you can imagine now
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the life of the
religious minorities there.
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You have to think about,
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be careful about
what I talk about,
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be careful about what I do.
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And it's true.
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Religious
minorities on this program
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had an Ahmadiyya Muslim cleric,
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who points out that in
Pakistan the Ahmadiyya Muslims
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even perhaps
more than Christians
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in Pakistan are
persecuted, fined, imprisoned
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and sometimes executed
just because of their faith.
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They don't even have
to do anything with it.
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And it is in the law.
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You know, they are
not recognizing the law
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and they are
persecuted according to the law.
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Not even
citizenship rights in America.
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Yeah that's incredible.
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Well, this is what
happened in our world today.
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Now, I don't want
to throw something in
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and you know
perhaps it's overreached
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but I think not as
a solitary example.
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Even in the United
States whether it's practical
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religious
liberty on ongoing basis.
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President Obama not to long ago
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in the ongoing efforts
against terrorism announced
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that he said that this
way, the government has people
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that they believe are
involved with terrorism,
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antigovernment activities.
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But they have no evidence.
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Not enough evidence to try them.
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And they will be now
detained indefinitely.
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I don't believe he
meant anything bad about
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but that sort of
dynamic easily translates
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into whoever the
government of today
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thinks is an
enemy or is antithetical
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to their purposes,
they round them up.
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And in many
countries that translates
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very easily to
religious out there.
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They're seen as dangerous,
so with that sort of a law.
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Not now but that
easily could translate
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into people with the divergent
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religious view could
be cast as terrorists,
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enemies of the state.
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This is why, you
know, when we pass a law,
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this kind of restrictive law
which as you said the intension
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is really to protect
citizen in the country,
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but we have always to
think about the consequences
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and how the law
will be implemented
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and who will
implement it, because you know
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a law can be manipulated
and you can use the law against
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and you can use the
law against your enemy.
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To one degree or
another all political factions
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in any country manipulate it.
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Hopefully not illegally
but I mean there's a bias.
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They want to keep
their faction in power.
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They have an inherent
bias because they stand
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for this political viewpoint
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and they look
differently at the other.
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So when you have a law that
enables them to act on that,
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it can be very troublesome.
00:10:45.34\00:10:46.91
And coming back to Monteiro.
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You know, we organized a big,
we organized a big campaign.
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We ask the
people around the world
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to send cards for Christmas.
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And we send prayer,
you know, people were asked
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to pray and so on
and finally you receive
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thousand and thousand letter
and he said that was so happy.
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They actually arrived
in bags at the prison.
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Yes, they arrived
in bag at the prison.
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Its a wonderful thing.
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And then all people
say that it's incredible,
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you know, why you are
receiving all these letter?
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You know the message
we wanted to show that,
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you know, when a
brother is in prison,
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yeah, he has million and million
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brothers and
sisters around the world
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who are praying for them
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and doing their
best to help them.
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Prayers are not inconsequential.
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We have to
believe the Bible says,
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"A God, He is the
prayer of the righteous man."
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And you know the
story that I thought
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of on their committing before
and that was you say it again.
00:11:38.21\00:11:40.47
Remember, Peter was imprisoned
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and the believers gathered
to pray for his release.
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Even when he was released
they didn't quite believe it,
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but God does
providentially release.
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And I think while we
work through the legal system,
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I think these elements of
Monteiro's eventual release
00:11:52.73\00:11:55.41
that show God's providence.
00:11:55.44\00:11:57.39
Yeah, and you know that
was-- you need to be patient
00:11:57.42\00:12:00.28
and Monteiro did such a
beautiful work in the prison.
00:12:00.31\00:12:04.14
His testimony was fabulous.
00:12:04.17\00:12:05.97
You know, he gave every,
almost every day Bible studies.
00:12:06.00\00:12:09.11
He reached even
the former minister
00:12:09.14\00:12:10.79
of the government to
give Bible studies to them.
00:12:10.82\00:12:13.67
He was
respected by all prisoner.
00:12:13.70\00:12:16.75
He said that when he
had to go to the shower
00:12:16.78\00:12:18.93
which was almost a
luxury to go there.
00:12:18.96\00:12:21.69
He was protected
by five prisoners.
00:12:21.72\00:12:23.95
They say, no, we don't
want something happen to you.
00:12:23.98\00:12:27.35
He was-- you
know, when he spoke,
00:12:27.38\00:12:29.97
he has people coming.
00:12:30.00\00:12:31.25
A prisoner came
in to listen to him,
00:12:31.28\00:12:33.67
that was a fabulous
and I think he will let
00:12:33.70\00:12:36.12
such a beautiful testimony
in prison but still you know
00:12:36.15\00:12:38.89
you have to be patient
because when we visited him,
00:12:38.92\00:12:44.72
you know, the lawyers said to us
00:12:44.75\00:12:46.40
in two days he will be free,
00:12:46.43\00:12:48.28
then after in three
days he will be free.
00:12:48.31\00:12:50.94
Oh, next week and next month
00:12:50.97\00:12:53.46
and that next year and
it was so long, so long.
00:12:53.49\00:12:57.33
And eventually you
have to be very strong,
00:12:57.36\00:12:59.02
but Monteiro said he
never, never felt he was alone.
00:12:59.05\00:13:03.04
He had always the
presence of God with him.
00:13:03.08\00:13:06.00
And that is an
awareness that we need to pass
00:13:06.03\00:13:08.56
on through this program.
00:13:08.59\00:13:10.40
Around the world there are
others Seventh-day Adventists
00:13:10.43\00:13:13.34
but just as importantly
there are the Christians,
00:13:13.37\00:13:15.57
there are the
people of deeply held faith
00:13:15.60\00:13:17.98
who are suffering and
imprisoned for their faith.
00:13:18.01\00:13:20.15
We need to keep that in mind
00:13:20.18\00:13:21.34
and even in a country
as free as United States
00:13:21.37\00:13:24.36
or Australia where I'm
from, not a good dynamic
00:13:24.39\00:13:28.05
to just rest on your
hands, well, we are free.
00:13:28.08\00:13:29.87
But there's
always someone suffering
00:13:29.90\00:13:32.48
and we need to
keep them in mind.
00:13:32.51\00:13:34.43
And that is
important to remember
00:13:34.46\00:13:35.96
that there are
places around the world
00:13:35.99\00:13:37.88
where just because
people are different,
00:13:37.91\00:13:40.50
they have another
belief and they are persecuted.
00:13:40.53\00:13:43.69
That would be easy for them
00:13:43.72\00:13:44.94
to say, okay,
you know, I recant.
00:13:44.97\00:13:47.39
Why these people
especially in some country
00:13:47.42\00:13:49.64
Christian are poor people?
00:13:49.67\00:13:51.62
Why they just
said, okay, you know,
00:13:51.65\00:13:53.82
I want to be like other people?
00:13:53.85\00:13:55.37
Why my life should become
miserable because of my faith
00:13:55.40\00:14:00.08
but they are
strong in their faith.
00:14:00.11\00:14:01.77
That's true and
I think in the west
00:14:01.80\00:14:03.31
we are sometimes
guilty of saying you come,
00:14:03.34\00:14:05.71
take up this faith
become Seventh-day Adventist,
00:14:05.74\00:14:08.47
become a Christian and
life will improve for you,
00:14:08.50\00:14:10.22
not always not here in now.
00:14:10.25\00:14:12.08
It spiritually improves
00:14:12.11\00:14:13.21
and the promise of
the future is wonderful.
00:14:13.24\00:14:15.38
We'll be back
after a short break
00:14:15.41\00:14:17.43
to continue this discussion
00:14:17.46\00:14:18.93
of the great
experience of Pastor Monteiro,
00:14:18.96\00:14:21.38
but we'll talk a
little bit more broadly about
00:14:21.41\00:14:23.42
what it means to
stand for your faith.
00:14:23.45\00:14:26.72