Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000253B
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00:03 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:05 Before the break with guest Dr. John Graz 00:07 we were talking about ecumenism and some of-- 00:10 And religious freedom. 00:11 And religious freedom, 00:12 yes, because they're not one and the same. 00:15 But they intersect very often, particularly 00:18 with their own constituency 00:19 and what they think is going on. 00:22 Ecumenical movement as we've discussed 00:24 is not really dead, but it's changed its-- 00:27 the way that it presents is a little different 00:29 than certainly in the '60s, isn't it? 00:31 Yeah, because, you know, 00:33 in fact you did not have a lot of progress 00:36 in ecumenism in term of if the goal-- 00:39 you know, the goal was really 00:40 to build a uni-- a visible unity 00:42 and still you have the Orthodox Church, 00:45 you have the Protestant, the Liberal Protestant and I-- 00:48 I have to say that it becomes more and more complicated 00:51 because now the problem-- one of the problem 00:55 in the ecumenical circle at the world level 00:58 it's not really adduct, not only doctrinal problem 01:01 which the progress has not been done 01:04 you know, still they are-- 01:05 they have the early-- not together. 01:08 In one side you have the Lutheran, 01:10 in the other side you have the Catholic 01:12 and so Orthodox and so on. 01:13 But it's the ethical problem 01:16 which is really dividing ecumenical world 01:19 between the west and the south 01:22 the ethical problem, it means what-- 01:24 what kind of place do we have to give to the gays 01:28 and the lesbians in the church to authorize-- 01:31 Their differences in doctrinal application. 01:34 Yeah, but that's really a point which divide very strongly 01:39 that the ecumenical world today. 01:41 It means that it's still working, 01:43 the vision is still here, but a lot, lot of challenges 01:47 it doesn't go as people expected. 01:51 But on one level it's even further along 01:52 than people imagine like before the break 01:55 I mentioned Tony Palmer, an ostensibly, 01:59 an Episcopal priest. 02:00 I actually found out 02:02 that the branch of the Episcopal church 02:04 he belongs to is a convergent movement, 02:07 when most of the priests and the adherence 02:10 have come from outside of the Anglic-- 02:15 I think of the Anglican, the Episcopal church 02:18 and they've joined with it, but their agenda is different, 02:21 their practice is different 02:22 so they've really taken on the name. 02:24 But it's a little misleading to think of this 02:26 as the heart land of Episcopal belief. 02:30 But that said, the Church of England 02:33 has gone close enough to Rome now 02:35 that they can actually hold orders 02:38 within the Catholic Church. 02:40 They call it under the ordinariate. 02:42 They're officially part of the Roman Catholic structure, 02:45 so those that are seeing a blending coming from this, 02:49 there's evidence for that. 02:50 But I think it's probably gone as far as it needs to go 02:54 to fulfill any prophetic expectation 02:57 and is probably gone as far as it's logical 03:00 with all of the inhabitations that you mentioned, 03:02 and some of them are just plain organizational. 03:04 Even in the secular world joining two businesses 03:07 is very difficult. 03:09 But usually it's done by just removing one 03:11 and the other joins with it but to mesh two structures-- 03:16 You know, this is why sometime 03:18 when we make so much publicity on some events, 03:21 but in fact you know, 03:23 except when you have on the practical issue, 03:25 you have Lutheran and reform in the same part of the country 03:30 they don't have enough pastor, 03:32 enough to find-- and they put-- they deicide to work together, 03:36 but that's not really the unity we talk about. 03:38 I think really there, the new coming, 03:41 the new way of ecumenist will be 03:44 just the largest the biggest church saying that 03:46 hey, you are losing your time to talk 03:48 and you talk, and you talk, come back home, 03:51 we are ready to welcome you. 03:53 That will be the new wave because, you know, 03:54 the other have been talking and talking and talking 03:57 and for very very very little result 04:00 and more and more problems. 04:02 Our-- And also that some people say that, 04:05 even in a Catholic church they say, 04:07 the real unity will come when Jesus come, return. 04:11 And we believe that too, you know, 04:12 when Jesus return you will have one people, 04:15 but I think I long-- as long as you have the freedom-- 04:17 One people of who have come out of here by people. 04:20 Yeah. There-- 04:21 As long as you have the freedom to choose. 04:24 Well, religious liberty that's what we're all about. 04:26 Yeah, as long as you have 04:28 religious freedom they would very difficult. 04:29 I'll say this for our viewers, but I know you agree with me. 04:32 When you talk about religious liberty, 04:34 you don't need to decide ahead of time 04:36 that this belief is a valid belief system at all, 04:39 it could be the most pernicious, 04:41 crazy, trumped up, [] believe possible, 04:45 but the mere fact that someone is called to that 04:47 their conscience drives them to it, 04:48 you have to defend their right to have it and hold it. 04:51 Yeah. 04:52 And you justify the whole principle of religious liberty 04:55 in every case not just one that you feel comfortable with. 04:58 Yeah, and this is why, you know, in history 05:01 unity have been always imposed. 05:04 It has never been the result of discussion 05:07 between both or three sides and so on. 05:09 It has been imposed, it means the unity will happen 05:14 according to what we believe on the prophecy 05:16 will be imposed by the power of the state. 05:19 And at this time you will have no religious freedom. 05:21 This is why it's so important to defend religious freedom 05:24 to give the possibility to people. 05:26 You want to join another church you are free to do that. 05:29 You are not-- You want to stay as you are, 05:32 you are free to do that and we protect your freedom. 05:34 You want to be part of [], 05:36 you are free as long as you don't threat the society 05:39 and the life of people. 05:41 You are free. It means you are not obliged 05:44 to join one church or another, 05:46 you are not obliged to stay in one church or to leave. 05:50 You know, you are free. 05:51 That's totally different than unity which would be imposed. 05:56 Let's talk about one aspect of ecumenism 05:59 or the ecumenical dynamic that I've observed, 06:02 it's coming to an end in one way 06:05 because there's been a change of Popes 06:08 but Benedict definitely structured the whole dynamic 06:13 as people of faith opposed to secularism. 06:17 And you can see that even in the United States 06:19 with the Protestant activists. 06:22 They saw the great enemy as secularism 06:25 and that's an instant coming together 06:27 of Roman Catholic political interests, 06:30 whole gambit of Protestant interests 06:31 and so to oppose the secular movement 06:35 and calling it even a religion. 06:37 That's been a great effort in the United States 06:39 say the secularism is a religion. 06:42 And I think with Benedict 06:44 he's moving on to a different approach, 06:46 but there's no question that this did create 06:49 or defect a union of most of the main line Protestant 06:52 and Catholic Churches or Catholic Church 06:56 who were unified with this common purpose 06:58 to oppose secularism. 06:59 Sometimes abortion, anti-abortion efforts, 07:04 other times creationism and so on but they were-- 07:09 they had a united front and they were not always wrong 07:10 in the things they did, 07:11 but that tended to make a single monolithic entity 07:16 out of Christian believers. 07:19 There are, there are also some other priority, 07:22 maybe not priority but concern, you know, 07:25 like your Pentecostal in, in South America 07:28 is one of the concern 07:29 it has been mentioned very, very often. 07:32 A concern for Rome, you know, 07:33 because the Pentecostal and Evangelical 07:35 are growing in traditionally Catholic countries 07:38 and you have Islam also, the place of Islam. 07:41 Of course, when you put secularism as number one 07:44 you have a chance to lead a coalition. 07:48 The question is, do we want to be part of this coalition? 07:51 That's always, you know, the political game. 07:54 You know, and I think that secularism 07:56 has always been, is a challenge too, 07:59 but there are also many other challenge we have to face. 08:02 But when you talk about religious freedom, 08:04 you also put the limit to secularism. 08:06 Secularism has, as it come-- 08:08 become a religion, should not persecute people 08:12 even on behalf of human rights. 08:14 Of course, part of the dynamic in the United States 08:16 and I haven't much discussed this on this program, 08:18 but it's a setup because for religious activists, 08:23 Protestants and some Catholics, to claim 08:25 that secularism is really a religion 08:29 and yet it gets access to government it-- 08:32 it is government funded education 08:37 in Darwinism and so on. 08:39 But here, this is really a false religion 08:41 being supported by the state where it should be expelled. 08:43 Yeah. 08:44 To me it's a straw man argument, 08:46 but the other day I had to rethink of it a little 08:48 because I had a representative from my office, 08:50 he's written an article for Liberty arguing 08:54 that the atheists need to have chaplains in the military. 08:59 That theirs is really the religion of man 09:01 and they need equal representation. 09:03 I believe it's a mistake for them to talk that way 09:05 because they're actually playing into the hands 09:08 of the ecumenical front of religionists 09:11 who would, in a way, try to get into government 09:14 for equal time believing and saying 09:16 that secularism is also a religious stands. 09:21 Oh, you know, probably one day it may be accepted 09:24 as a religion you know, who knows, 09:26 but still we have to learn how to live together 09:30 but every side, every side 09:32 and not just on the religious side. 09:34 We saw the effect of religious fanatics 09:37 of persecution centuries of persecution. 09:40 We saw also the effect of radical secularism, 09:43 radical atheist the same thing, you know, 09:46 million and million of people were killed. 09:49 Yeah, they kill people just because they were believers. 09:51 And we-- You need-- The world today 09:53 need to have a strong voice saying, 09:55 no, that's not the way we should follow. 09:57 Let people their freedom to decide 10:00 and but not only the freedom to decide, the freedom 10:03 to receive the information to decide. 10:05 And in many ways while the world 10:07 is deteriorating on many fronts, 10:09 just this understanding that there's more respect 10:11 for an individual's right to determine 10:13 their spiritual agenda, that is a great improvement. 10:15 Yeah, yeah, this is what religious freedom 10:17 is different that-- ecumenism they are-- 10:22 Do you know, you have another agenda 10:24 when you defend religious freedom, 10:25 and this is why I think is so important 10:27 to the defend religious freedom, 10:29 because you're putting the right of people 10:30 to decide what they want to do with their life, 10:33 with their conscience and that is, again 10:36 and I repeat, gift coming from God. 10:39 The last prayer of Jesus to His Father, 10:42 but in front of His few followers there 10:44 before His crucifixion was that they all may be one. 10:50 So when we speak about ecumenism, 10:53 while many people are suspicious of it, 10:55 the root, yearning, 10:57 the Jesus expressed is not wrong. 10:59 Christians are to be one, but they are to be one 11:02 in the spirit and knowledge of God. 11:04 They're not to be one glossing over all the differences 11:07 that have developed among men about 11:09 interpretation of truth or execution of it 11:12 through different organizations. 11:14 Those things can be very much opposed to truth, 11:18 and to ecumenically unite on those 11:22 is nothing but syncretism, to use another difficult word. 11:25 I know some people choke on these large words. 11:28 What we are called toward 11:30 is a unity with God in truth and in sprit. 11:33 What we're seeing in the world around us 11:35 very often is compromise. 11:37 There are well meaning efforts 11:39 and there are rather dangerous efforts 11:42 to sort of amalgamate even the old church of Rome, 11:46 and the new despaired churches of Protestantism. 11:50 We need to be careful with all of this sort of ecumenism. 11:53 Thank you for being with us 11:55 this is Lincoln Steed for Liberty Insider. |
Revised 2015-02-19