Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000253A
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00:15 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:17 This is a program bringing you analysis, news and information 00:21 on religious liberty developments 00:23 in the United States and around the world. 00:26 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine 00:29 and my guest is Dr. John Graz, 00:31 secretary general 00:32 of the International Religious Liberty Association or IRLA. 00:36 Yeah, always a pleasure to be with you, Lincoln. 00:38 Always a pleasure. 00:39 You're not a new comer on this program. 00:42 And you and I work close together on many things. 00:45 And as I've joked to a few people 00:47 since we traveled together, we spent many hours 00:49 in airport waiting lounges, debating things. 00:54 But let's talk about something that is for-- 00:57 we both Seventh-day Adventist, both protestants, both us... 01:01 Christian. Have a great interest in-- 01:02 Yes, let's begin-- it's not always, 01:07 but we're both students of history. 01:09 What do you make of the current developments 01:11 on the ecumenical front? 01:13 Which is not a word people use much as they used to, is it? 01:16 Yeah. 01:17 Eecumenism is not totally dead. 01:19 No, no, no. But what-- where is it going? 01:22 What are the some of the evidences nowadays 01:23 that you see that are interesting? 01:24 Yeah, you know, we have to remember 01:26 the context of ecumenism. 01:28 It started after the First World War, 01:32 you know, where Christians say that, 01:34 you know, what is in it, we are fighting 01:35 Christian against Christian, it's nonsense. 01:38 There are so many things to do and we are fighting. 01:41 That was just after this terrible First World War, 01:45 and they say we should, it started in Sweden, 01:47 in some other countries and they associate 01:49 all the Protestant with the Orthodox 01:51 and also they tried to be together 01:54 to see the world differently and specially to have 01:57 more influence in the society 01:59 in favor of peace, justice and so on. 02:03 And they continue to work together 02:05 then the Second World War happened, 02:08 then after the Second World War same scenario, 02:11 they say, we have should continue 02:13 what we have started between the two walls and that 02:18 gave birth to the World Council of Churches, 02:21 it means a kind of association of national churches, 02:24 all official churches, 02:26 most of them were protestant churches, 02:28 we've the Orthodox churches. 02:30 Of course most of the Orthodox churches 02:33 at this time were under the communist rule. 02:36 But the Catholic were not part 02:38 but they were interested and after Vatican II-- 02:41 I think Vatican II was when Roman Catholics 02:44 became involved in the pressures. 02:45 Yes, because after Vatican II chained the vision 02:47 of the Catholic about religious freedom 02:49 that was late, it came late, but that at least it came 02:52 and they had a large discussion 02:54 about religious freedom 02:56 and for the first time in their history, 02:58 you know, the Catholic Church in Rome accepted 03:01 that you could be different and you could have the right 03:04 also to choose to follow the error 03:07 hoping that one day you will find the truth. 03:09 But of course you know it came 03:10 after the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 03:13 and at-- after many things, 03:15 but at least it open in many places 03:17 like Latin America and so on. 03:20 Open the door to many, many religious groups. 03:22 Well, in many ways Vatican too was a realistic response 03:27 to a situation worldwide that the Catholic Church felt 03:30 they were losing control. 03:32 Catholicism in the United States 03:33 was almost rebellious. 03:35 You mentioned Latin America 03:37 and countries in the third world too 03:40 were breaking free of the old norms 03:42 and they were not giving the Roman Catholic Church 03:43 the privileged status that they had before, 03:46 so they're losing control and they were forced to look at it 03:49 from a more humanistic point of view. 03:52 How they related to other faiths, 03:54 other peoples a loss of power. 03:56 But also, you know, it opened other territory 03:58 to the Catholic Church too. 03:59 It means when you put all together 04:01 you lose in one side and you win in the other side. 04:05 And when it comes to religious freedom, 04:08 you know, Catholics are persecuted 04:09 like other Christian everywhere. 04:11 It means that's normal that a Catholic Church say 04:15 our people should be respected everywhere 04:18 and that's really just freedom. 04:21 But now, you know, ecumenism and religious freedom 04:23 are not systematically going together, 04:26 that's two different things. 04:28 And the problem we have most of the time 04:30 when, you know, I present a PowerPoint 04:32 and people see me shaking the hand of a Moula, 04:37 a leader, a Rabbi, an archbishop and so on 04:41 they say that's ecumenism. 04:43 No, that's a good relation, that's different. 04:46 Right, that's what I was gonna jump in on. 04:48 You know, we both work in religious liberty 04:51 and our church uses the term 04:53 public affairs and religious liberty. 04:54 Religious liberty, yeah. 04:55 And the public affairs side there's a very real need, 05:00 in fact there should be an obligation 05:01 from any religious group to have contact 05:04 with other religious groups, that's communication. 05:07 That's not compromise. 05:08 No, absolutely because a communist means 05:11 not the point, it's not on the agenda. 05:13 When you talk about religious freedom 05:15 you don't talk about church, the unity of the church 05:17 you talk about the right of people to choose. 05:20 Absolutely. You know, ecumenist what is it? 05:23 Many people use the word ecumenist. 05:25 When we had a meeting just a few days ago 05:28 with religious leaders who are-- 05:31 they are not part of the ecumenical movement 05:33 but they use the word of ecumenist, why? 05:35 Because for them every time-- It means, coming together. 05:37 Yeah, every time you are together that's ecumenist, 05:40 but really behind the ecumenical movement 05:43 you have these visible unity, 05:44 the vision of the visible unity. 05:47 It means that we are Christian, we are divided, 05:50 Jesus said be one like of the Father and Me, we are one. 05:54 And we should do that, we should build 05:56 the unity of the church. 05:57 But the visible unity 05:59 and sometime I ask what does it mean? 06:01 You know, and the answer will be, 06:04 when we are working together that's the visible unity. 06:07 But for some other the visible unity would be 06:10 just to have one church organization 06:13 and for some other the visible unity will be 06:15 to come back to the mother church. 06:17 And this is why, you know, in one side 06:19 you have ecumenism and with one goal of vision, unity 06:24 and the other side you have religious freedom. 06:26 Religious freedom is, you have the right to decide. 06:29 You are not obliged to be part of one movement. 06:32 You can divide, you can even create your own movement, 06:35 you have the right. 06:36 These right come from God and we will respect it. 06:39 Within our Seventh-day Adventist culture, 06:44 there's no question that many well meaning 06:47 Seventh-day Adventists are overly suspicious 06:50 of inter church contacts 06:52 because of aphaeretic understanding. 06:54 We see in Revelation 13, 06:57 I mean, it's not just our interpretation 06:59 you could-- we interpret it in particular way, 07:01 but it's very plain in Revelation 13 07:04 that religious powers will work with the state, 07:08 to compel, to a forced religious behavior. 07:12 And so we see when-- whenever this dialog 07:16 and clearly with Church of England and Rome, 07:18 there is an effort to even integrate them, 07:21 we see there the precursors to the persecution. 07:24 But as you said before just to have Christian contacts 07:27 and meetings and talk about our faith, 07:30 sight of the other group, we believe this 07:32 what do you believe and we being persecuted, 07:34 you're being persecuted, 07:35 how come we contact these governments? 07:37 That sort of stuff is not only not harmful, it's necessary. 07:40 It's necessary and also you have to remember 07:43 that in every case of persecution, you have people 07:49 helping people of the other side. 07:51 There are many story about Catholics 07:53 even during the reformation time, 07:55 Catholic helping Protestant who were persecuted. 07:59 You know, and Muslim helping Christian who were persecuted. 08:03 It means you have good people everywhere 08:06 and these good people has to know you 08:07 and you have to know them. 08:09 You have to make friends, you know, that is important, 08:12 it has nothing to do with building 08:15 one unique visible church. 08:18 That's another agenda. 08:19 Yeah, and of course a Seventh-day Adventist church 08:23 is rightly more than suspicious will-- cannot 08:27 as its ground rules work toward integrating 08:29 our beliefs with some other church or-- 08:31 I mean, that's called compromise. 08:33 We're not to compromise, 08:34 we keep the purity of our biblical understandings, 08:39 but-- anyhow let's talk about ecumenism in its current form 08:42 because I think the ecumenical movement 08:43 in its classic form is fallen on hard times. 08:47 I don't see any grand coalition 08:51 particularly of formal reorganization. 08:55 It's a difficult time, yeah, because, you know, 08:57 after 40, more than 40 years really nothing happened. 09:01 Even if we make a big publicity 09:03 about the John declaration on a phase, 09:06 you know, salvation by phase and so on. 09:09 In fact, nothing really happened, 09:10 but there are some alliance. 09:12 There's lot of alliances, there's lot of-- 09:13 You know, especially among the national churches that's-- 09:16 And it sees to me the doctrinal differences 09:18 between groups have been diminished, 09:20 they don't know them or insist on them, 09:23 so it's become fairly syncretistic 09:26 that to use a bad word. 09:27 That is good, that's a good point 09:28 because you know, that's something also 09:30 we have to be aware of, 09:32 if you put down the doctrines 09:36 now you know, why we should not be united? 09:38 We are stronger if we are united 09:40 and this is why when you deal with people 09:43 who puts first as a priority, 09:46 the unity, the doctrine will go down. 09:49 But, you know, our position is very clear, 09:51 you know, unity in the truth, 09:54 in the truth in the Word of God. 09:56 That's very clear. 09:57 And the other day I was talking to someone and it hit me 10:01 because they're always minimizing doctrine 10:03 In fact, there was-- we'll talk a bit after the break, 10:06 there was a recent television broadcast 10:09 with Kenneth Copeland and an Episcopal priest 10:15 and then a broadcast from the Pope himself, 10:19 where it was all sort of mixed together 10:20 and I think it was the Episcopal priest said, 10:24 you know, doctrine is not important. 10:25 Let's just unite in the spirit. We can discuss doctrine later. 10:29 But as I said to someone doctrine 10:31 well, you 're not saved by doctrine, 10:33 doctrine is the description of your faith. 10:35 Yeah, exactly. 10:36 This is the skeleton of the structure, 10:39 and you can't dispense with doctrine. 10:41 And of course, you know, if you say 10:42 that doctrine is not important, 10:44 you say that being together is more important. 10:47 What you will do? 10:48 You will join the bigger, the bigger church 10:51 because it makes no sense to create a new church. 10:53 You go where, you know, the majority of people are 10:57 and you go back to the truth of the mother church. 11:00 And this is what, you know, there is no reason to do that. 11:04 If you put doctrine down, you give the possibility, 11:08 the opportunity to other to put their doctrine up. 11:10 Absolutely. 11:11 And it means you-- you give up, you surrender yourself. 11:14 And at end of the day 11:15 doctrine is important to any organization 11:18 because it's the description of their organization. 11:21 Yeah, and also-- 11:22 And for the individualistic description of 11:24 how they structure their faith. 11:26 And doctrine should help us to become better Christian, 11:29 not to become more fanatics 11:31 and exclusivist, but doctrine help us. 11:35 But anyhow we're getting close to the break, 11:38 but-- before the break I just want to introduce that 11:40 there was this said piece 11:43 that you can still see on YouTube, 11:44 where Kenneth Copeland at the leadership conference 11:48 allowed a-- an Episcopal priest name Tony Palmer, 11:52 who I found has been a long time associate 11:55 with Kenneth Copeland's ministry 11:56 so it was not as other as you might think, 11:59 but still with an Episcopal identification 12:02 he got up and shut the group 12:04 by saying the reaffirmation is over, 12:07 you're all Catholics, well, these are foolish statements 12:10 with some basis in recent events 12:12 but still they're over statements. 12:14 And then he introduced his friend Cardinal Bergoglio 12:17 who is now Pope Francis, who presented very personably 12:23 and he made this appeal for oneness in Christ 12:27 which all Christians should share 12:29 because I might 12:30 [differ] doctrine leave from St. Lutherans 12:32 but there's no reason 12:33 I can't have a common fellowship with them 12:36 because we both worship Jesus Christ 12:39 and respect the Bible and so on 12:41 and I'm for godly living and some, 12:43 but that doesn't mean I am a Lutheran. 12:46 So, you know, the Pope gave a very good appeal, 12:49 but the end result of it was with many viewers 12:53 this mix, they don't know who is who? 12:54 Here's the Catholic's looking very Protestant 12:58 and the Protestants looking very Catholic suddenly 13:00 and, you know, where's up and down in all of this? 13:03 To me it was the popularization 13:06 of the ecumenical principal that many people are against, 13:09 but here on public display 13:11 how do you judge where to go on this? 13:15 You know, is up down, is down up? 13:17 Yeah, that's a-- that's a good question 13:19 but, you know, seeing that doctrine, 13:20 it's not important, it means 13:22 that what I believe is not important. 13:25 You know, we have to be honest, if you know, if I-- 13:29 I'm an Adventist or Protestant and so on, 13:31 it's because something, because I believe 13:33 in something coming from the Bible. 13:35 Now what I mean that I will join another group 13:38 and another church saying that we have to be one, and-- 13:40 what about what I believe? 13:42 I would be-- You know, if I become Catholic 13:44 I will be a very poor Catholic 13:46 if I maintain what I believe now. 13:48 Means I have to be honest 13:49 as long as we believe things differently, we are different. 13:53 Right and these differences are very important 13:55 like a doctrinal point as Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 13:58 Yeah. 13:59 If I get to dispense with that doctrinal point? 14:01 Certainly not. 14:02 We'll take a short break now 14:03 and be back to continue this discussion of ecumenism 14:07 and the modern experience. 14:09 Where we are going with all of this? |
Revised 2015-02-19