Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program bringing you
analysis, news and information
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on religious
liberty developments
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest is Dr. John Graz,
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secretary general
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of the International Religious
Liberty Association or IRLA.
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Yeah, always a pleasure
to be with you, Lincoln.
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Always a pleasure.
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You're not a new
comer on this program.
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And you and I work
close together on many things.
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And as I've
joked to a few people
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since we traveled
together, we spent many hours
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in airport waiting
lounges, debating things.
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But let's talk about
something that is for--
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we both Seventh-day Adventist,
both protestants, both us...
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Christian. Have a
great interest in--
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Yes, let's
begin-- it's not always,
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but we're both
students of history.
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What do you make of
the current developments
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on the ecumenical front?
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Which is not a word people
use much as they used to, is it?
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Yeah.
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Eecumenism is not totally dead.
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No, no, no. But
what-- where is it going?
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What are the some of
the evidences nowadays
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that you see
that are interesting?
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Yeah, you know,
we have to remember
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the context of ecumenism.
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It started after
the First World War,
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you know, where
Christians say that,
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you know, what is
in it, we are fighting
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Christian against
Christian, it's nonsense.
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There are so many things
to do and we are fighting.
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That was just after this
terrible First World War,
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and they say we
should, it started in Sweden,
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in some other
countries and they associate
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all the
Protestant with the Orthodox
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and also they
tried to be together
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to see the world differently
and specially to have
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more influence in the society
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in favor of
peace, justice and so on.
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And they
continue to work together
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then the Second
World War happened,
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then after the Second
World War same scenario,
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they say, we
have should continue
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what we have started
between the two walls and that
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gave birth to the
World Council of Churches,
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it means a kind of association
of national churches,
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all official churches,
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most of them were
protestant churches,
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we've the Orthodox churches.
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Of course most of
the Orthodox churches
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at this time were
under the communist rule.
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But the Catholic were not part
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but they were interested
and after Vatican II--
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I think Vatican II
was when Roman Catholics
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became involved
in the pressures.
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Yes, because after
Vatican II chained the vision
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of the Catholic
about religious freedom
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that was late, it came
late, but that at least it came
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and they had a large discussion
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about religious freedom
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and for the first
time in their history,
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you know, the Catholic
Church in Rome accepted
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that you could be different
and you could have the right
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also to choose
to follow the error
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hoping that one day
you will find the truth.
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But of course you know it came
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after the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights
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and at-- after many things,
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but at least it
open in many places
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like Latin America and so on.
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Open the door to
many, many religious groups.
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Well, in many ways Vatican
too was a realistic response
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to a situation worldwide
that the Catholic Church felt
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they were losing control.
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Catholicism in the United States
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was almost rebellious.
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You mentioned Latin America
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and countries in
the third world too
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were breaking
free of the old norms
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and they were not giving
the Roman Catholic Church
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the privileged
status that they had before,
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so they're losing control and
they were forced to look at it
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from a more
humanistic point of view.
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How they
related to other faiths,
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other peoples a loss of power.
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But also, you know,
it opened other territory
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to the Catholic Church too.
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It means when
you put all together
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you lose in one side and
you win in the other side.
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And when it comes
to religious freedom,
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you know,
Catholics are persecuted
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like other Christian everywhere.
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It means that's normal
that a Catholic Church say
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our people should
be respected everywhere
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and that's really just freedom.
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But now, you know,
ecumenism and religious freedom
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are not
systematically going together,
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that's two different things.
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And the problem we
have most of the time
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when, you know, I
present a PowerPoint
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and people see me
shaking the hand of a Moula,
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a leader, a Rabbi,
an archbishop and so on
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they say that's ecumenism.
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No, that's a good
relation, that's different.
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Right, that's what I
was gonna jump in on.
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You know, we both
work in religious liberty
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and our church uses the term
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public affairs
and religious liberty.
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Religious liberty, yeah.
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And the public affairs
side there's a very real need,
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in fact there
should be an obligation
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from any religious
group to have contact
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with other religious
groups, that's communication.
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That's not compromise.
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No, absolutely
because a communist means
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not the point,
it's not on the agenda.
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When you talk
about religious freedom
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you don't talk about
church, the unity of the church
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you talk about the
right of people to choose.
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Absolutely. You
know, ecumenist what is it?
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Many people use
the word ecumenist.
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When we had a
meeting just a few days ago
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with religious leaders who are--
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they are not part of
the ecumenical movement
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but they use the
word of ecumenist, why?
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Because for them every time--
It means, coming together.
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Yeah, every time you are
together that's ecumenist,
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but really behind
the ecumenical movement
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you have these visible unity,
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the vision of the visible unity.
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It means that we are
Christian, we are divided,
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Jesus said be one like of
the Father and Me, we are one.
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And we should do
that, we should build
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the unity of the church.
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But the visible unity
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and sometime I
ask what does it mean?
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You know, and
the answer will be,
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when we are working together
that's the visible unity.
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But for some other
the visible unity would be
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just to have one
church organization
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and for some other
the visible unity will be
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to come back to
the mother church.
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And this is why,
you know, in one side
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you have ecumenism and
with one goal of vision, unity
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and the other side you
have religious freedom.
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Religious freedom is,
you have the right to decide.
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You are not obliged to
be part of one movement.
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You can divide, you can
even create your own movement,
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you have the right.
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These right come from
God and we will respect it.
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Within our
Seventh-day Adventist culture,
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there's no question
that many well meaning
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Seventh-day
Adventists are overly suspicious
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of inter church contacts
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because of
aphaeretic understanding.
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We see in Revelation 13,
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I mean, it's not
just our interpretation
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you could-- we
interpret it in particular way,
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but it's very
plain in Revelation 13
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that religious powers
will work with the state,
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to compel, to a
forced religious behavior.
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And so we see
when-- whenever this dialog
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and clearly with
Church of England and Rome,
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there is an effort
to even integrate them,
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we see there the
precursors to the persecution.
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But as you said before
just to have Christian contacts
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and meetings and
talk about our faith,
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sight of the other
group, we believe this
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what do you believe
and we being persecuted,
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you're being persecuted,
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how come we
contact these governments?
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That sort of stuff is not only
not harmful, it's necessary.
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It's necessary and
also you have to remember
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that in every case of
persecution, you have people
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helping people
of the other side.
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There are many
story about Catholics
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even during the
reformation time,
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Catholic helping
Protestant who were persecuted.
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You know, and Muslim helping
Christian who were persecuted.
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It means you have
good people everywhere
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and these good
people has to know you
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and you have to know them.
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You have to make friends,
you know, that is important,
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it has nothing
to do with building
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one unique visible church.
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That's another agenda.
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Yeah, and of course a
Seventh-day Adventist church
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is rightly more than
suspicious will-- cannot
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as its ground rules
work toward integrating
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our beliefs with
some other church or--
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I mean, that's
called compromise.
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We're not to compromise,
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we keep the purity of
our biblical understandings,
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but-- anyhow let's talk about
ecumenism in its current form
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because I think
the ecumenical movement
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in its classic form
is fallen on hard times.
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I don't see any grand coalition
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particularly of
formal reorganization.
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It's a difficult time,
yeah, because, you know,
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after 40, more than 40
years really nothing happened.
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Even if we make a big publicity
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about the John
declaration on a phase,
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you know,
salvation by phase and so on.
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In fact,
nothing really happened,
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but there are some alliance.
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There's lot of
alliances, there's lot of--
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You know, especially among
the national churches that's--
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And it sees to me
the doctrinal differences
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between groups
have been diminished,
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they don't know
them or insist on them,
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so it's become
fairly syncretistic
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that to use a bad word.
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That is good,
that's a good point
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because you know,
that's something also
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we have to be aware of,
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if you put down the doctrines
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now you know, why we
should not be united?
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We are stronger if we are united
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and this is why
when you deal with people
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who puts first as a priority,
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the unity, the
doctrine will go down.
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But, you know, our
position is very clear,
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you know, unity in the truth,
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in the truth in the Word of God.
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That's very clear.
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And the other day I was
talking to someone and it hit me
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because they're
always minimizing doctrine
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In fact, there was-- we'll
talk a bit after the break,
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there was a recent
television broadcast
00:10:06.42\00:10:09.48
with Kenneth Copeland
and an Episcopal priest
00:10:09.51\00:10:15.03
and then a broadcast
from the Pope himself,
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where it was all
sort of mixed together
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and I think it was
the Episcopal priest said,
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you know,
doctrine is not important.
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Let's just unite in the spirit.
We can discuss doctrine later.
00:10:25.75\00:10:29.03
But as I said
to someone doctrine
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well, you 're not
saved by doctrine,
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doctrine is the
description of your faith.
00:10:33.12\00:10:34.98
Yeah, exactly.
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This is the
skeleton of the structure,
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and you can't
dispense with doctrine.
00:10:39.35\00:10:41.05
And of course,
you know, if you say
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that doctrine is not important,
00:10:42.15\00:10:44.38
you say that being
together is more important.
00:10:44.41\00:10:47.74
What you will do?
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You will join the
bigger, the bigger church
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because it makes no
sense to create a new church.
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You go where, you know,
the majority of people are
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and you go back to the
truth of the mother church.
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And this is what, you know,
there is no reason to do that.
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If you put doctrine
down, you give the possibility,
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the opportunity to other
to put their doctrine up.
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Absolutely.
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And it means you-- you
give up, you surrender yourself.
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And at end of the day
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doctrine is
important to any organization
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because it's the description
of their organization.
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Yeah, and also--
00:11:21.00\00:11:22.06
And for the
individualistic description of
00:11:22.09\00:11:24.88
how they structure their faith.
00:11:24.91\00:11:26.18
And doctrine should help
us to become better Christian,
00:11:26.21\00:11:29.27
not to become more fanatics
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and exclusivist,
but doctrine help us.
00:11:31.56\00:11:35.43
But anyhow we're
getting close to the break,
00:11:35.46\00:11:38.11
but-- before the break I
just want to introduce that
00:11:38.14\00:11:40.74
there was this said piece
00:11:40.77\00:11:43.23
that you can
still see on YouTube,
00:11:43.26\00:11:44.82
where Kenneth Copeland
at the leadership conference
00:11:44.85\00:11:48.51
allowed a-- an Episcopal
priest name Tony Palmer,
00:11:48.54\00:11:52.09
who I found has been
a long time associate
00:11:52.12\00:11:55.27
with Kenneth Copeland's ministry
00:11:55.30\00:11:56.68
so it was not as
other as you might think,
00:11:56.71\00:11:59.80
but still with an
Episcopal identification
00:11:59.83\00:12:02.27
he got up and shut the group
00:12:02.30\00:12:04.55
by saying the
reaffirmation is over,
00:12:04.58\00:12:07.23
you're all Catholics, well,
these are foolish statements
00:12:07.26\00:12:10.41
with some basis in recent events
00:12:10.44\00:12:12.28
but still
they're over statements.
00:12:12.31\00:12:14.12
And then he introduced
his friend Cardinal Bergoglio
00:12:14.15\00:12:17.07
who is now Pope Francis,
who presented very personably
00:12:17.10\00:12:23.55
and he made this
appeal for oneness in Christ
00:12:23.58\00:12:27.93
which all
Christians should share
00:12:27.96\00:12:29.45
because I might
00:12:29.48\00:12:30.55
[differ] doctrine
leave from St. Lutherans
00:12:30.58\00:12:32.33
but there's no reason
00:12:32.36\00:12:33.39
I can't have a
common fellowship with them
00:12:33.42\00:12:36.87
because we both
worship Jesus Christ
00:12:36.90\00:12:39.70
and respect the Bible and so on
00:12:39.73\00:12:41.81
and I'm for
godly living and some,
00:12:41.84\00:12:43.75
but that doesn't
mean I am a Lutheran.
00:12:43.78\00:12:46.50
So, you know, the Pope
gave a very good appeal,
00:12:46.53\00:12:49.93
but the end result of
it was with many viewers
00:12:49.96\00:12:52.97
this mix, they
don't know who is who?
00:12:53.00\00:12:54.93
Here's the Catholic's
looking very Protestant
00:12:54.96\00:12:58.60
and the Protestants
looking very Catholic suddenly
00:12:58.63\00:13:00.92
and, you know, where's
up and down in all of this?
00:13:00.95\00:13:03.81
To me it was the popularization
00:13:03.84\00:13:06.09
of the ecumenical principal
that many people are against,
00:13:06.12\00:13:08.99
but here on public display
00:13:09.02\00:13:11.42
how do you judge
where to go on this?
00:13:11.45\00:13:14.99
You know, is up
down, is down up?
00:13:15.02\00:13:17.51
Yeah, that's a--
that's a good question
00:13:17.54\00:13:19.09
but, you know,
seeing that doctrine,
00:13:19.12\00:13:20.91
it's not important, it means
00:13:20.94\00:13:22.30
that what I
believe is not important.
00:13:22.33\00:13:25.39
You know, we have to be
honest, if you know, if I--
00:13:25.42\00:13:29.27
I'm an Adventist or
Protestant and so on,
00:13:29.30\00:13:31.67
it's because
something, because I believe
00:13:31.70\00:13:33.44
in something
coming from the Bible.
00:13:33.47\00:13:35.39
Now what I mean that I
will join another group
00:13:35.42\00:13:38.15
and another church saying
that we have to be one, and--
00:13:38.18\00:13:40.84
what about what I believe?
00:13:40.87\00:13:41.97
I would be-- You
know, if I become Catholic
00:13:42.00\00:13:44.16
I will be a very poor Catholic
00:13:44.19\00:13:46.12
if I maintain
what I believe now.
00:13:46.15\00:13:48.48
Means I have to be honest
00:13:48.51\00:13:49.62
as long as we believe things
differently, we are different.
00:13:49.65\00:13:53.69
Right and these
differences are very important
00:13:53.72\00:13:55.89
like a doctrinal point as
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
00:13:55.92\00:13:58.44
Yeah.
00:13:58.47\00:13:59.50
If I get to dispense
with that doctrinal point?
00:13:59.53\00:14:01.27
Certainly not.
00:14:01.30\00:14:02.65
We'll take a short break now
00:14:02.68\00:14:03.92
and be back to continue
this discussion of ecumenism
00:14:03.95\00:14:07.87
and the modern experience.
00:14:07.90\00:14:09.67
Where we are
going with all of this?
00:14:09.70\00:14:11.04