Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000252B
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00:02 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:05 Again this is Lincoln Steed, editor of the Liberty Magazine 00:08 with my guests John Graz. 00:10 And before the break, John, 00:11 we were riffing on a bit about one particular area 00:14 of the world at the moment the Ukraine 00:16 and of course the annexation there of the Crimean peninsula, 00:22 but the religious liberty situation 00:24 is pretty broad based, isn't it? 00:25 There is lot going on, 00:26 and what's another country that you can think of right now that 00:31 what's commenting on that 00:33 this is a very interesting religious dynamic. 00:35 Yeah, you know, you have always the same, 00:37 more or less the same country like North Korea, 00:39 Saudi Arabia, Middle East where you have tension 00:43 and somewhere you have still persecution 00:45 of minorities like the Christians 00:47 are persecuted in several countries. 00:49 But you have also in some part of the world, 00:51 Muslim now who are prosecuted. 00:53 That's interesting that in Africa 00:56 you know, Central Africa Republic 00:59 the western power especially the French 01:03 send military, the army to protect the Muslim 01:06 which were persecuted by the Christian, 01:09 and it becomes really a very complex 01:12 because of course the Christian these country are afraid that 01:15 you know, they will have the same problem 01:17 with the extremist Muslim that they had 01:20 in other countries of Africa like in Nigeria, like Chad 01:24 and some becomes more and more complicated. 01:28 Sometime you have a little light like in Tunisia 01:32 where you know the Muslim-- 01:33 After the Arab Spring 01:35 Yeah Arab Spring and the Muslim Islamic party is in charge, 01:40 but in spite of that the strong reaction of those 01:43 who are in favor of democratic countries, 01:46 made that they put freedom of conscience 01:49 in their constitution that's incredible, 01:51 that's probably the first country in Middle East 01:53 where you have freedom of conscience. 01:55 there are some improvements I don't think we would want 01:58 to characterize Tunisia in its freedom on an absolute level 02:03 say its the United States or France or somewhere, 02:07 but relatively speaking 02:08 compared to some of the surroundings countries 02:10 that's wonderful gleam of light, isn't it? 02:12 You know, you are always to remember that 02:15 that's not done once for all, 02:18 it means you have always the possibility to react. 02:20 That's very difficult 02:22 and its very unique about Tunisia and about Middle East. 02:25 They're really the trans today in favor of religious freedom. 02:30 But even you know in countries like Vietnam, 02:33 you have a pocket of-- 02:35 I will not say religious freedom 02:37 pocket of more freedom where churches can have meeting. 02:41 In China the same, China, can have 02:43 a very strong reaction against religion in some part of China, 02:49 and more liberal politics in some other parts. 02:53 Means we are really when we try to make 02:55 an appreciation about religious freedom in the world 02:58 I should say that the trans is not good 03:01 but they are still some pocket of hope. 03:04 But tell me if I'm right-- 03:06 But we have to you know, to conclude it 03:08 this is why it's so important that in countries 03:10 where we have religious freedom we promote-- 03:13 We protect it. 03:14 We become visible. And be vigilant. 03:16 Be vigilant and we ask our government really 03:19 to do something for those who are persecuted. 03:22 It seems to me you mentioned China, 03:23 and they're many hopeful signs coming out of China 03:26 but under the hardcore communist regime 03:29 there was a serious problem 03:30 because at roots Marxism and communism 03:34 sees religion as a positive evil. 03:37 I mean it's incompatible with this system. 03:40 And China is moved to hybrid system at best 03:44 sort of a new thing we don't know 03:45 but it's certainly a hybrid 03:47 between capitalism and communism. 03:49 Its not as ideological and the persecution 03:52 which does continue its seems to me now, 03:54 its more structural 03:57 if people of faith keep to their on business 04:01 and don't interfere with the governments plans, 04:03 they're not rigorous in opposing them. 04:05 But as long as they allow or they're willing to live 04:07 under a cohesive controlling governmental system, 04:12 and that's where we have the problem now, isn't it? 04:13 Organizational, if they think religion is free lancing 04:16 is meeting without knowledge of the government, 04:19 they can be brutal in China but yet religion is advancing 04:24 with the westernization/ capitalism of China. 04:29 I see it opening things up progressively. 04:30 It means, you know, China as you say 04:32 there are some part of China 04:33 where really religion is booming, 04:35 some other part where they are oppressed. 04:38 You know, it depends where but something which is really, 04:42 you can see more and more 04:43 including in our democratic countries 04:45 or liberal countries is the control of the state. 04:49 You know more and more in some countries, 04:53 where you have a freedom, the state wanted to protect 04:56 against the terrorism and so on and so on. 04:58 And you put in the place, you set up a system 05:01 which at the end wants to control everything, 05:05 including religion 05:06 and of course you'll start with the buyers come and so on, 05:09 and when you're the member of religious minorities 05:12 its very easy to be listed as a bad people 05:16 or potentially bad people. 05:17 And particularly-- 05:18 They're, they are quiet now you know, 05:20 but you know maybe in few years, 05:22 they will become very dangerous and so on, 05:25 and it means you can kind of favor paranoid. 05:30 And at the end it goes, you know, 05:32 on the right direction, to the wrong direction. 05:34 And very often minorities have 05:36 an identification with some other country, 05:39 certainly the case for Christianity in the Middle East 05:42 they would see at us a beachhead in China, 05:45 and beachhead of western influence. 05:47 Very often minority religions, 05:51 have most distinctive belief system 05:53 so may be one or two of their members 05:54 have done something egregious that catches public attention, 05:57 and they sort of look cross ways of them. 06:01 Very often minority religions 06:02 don't socially adhere the same practices 06:05 and in case of Seventh-day Adventist, 06:07 your day of worship 06:10 is not the normal down day for the economy, 06:12 so you seen is disruptive to governmental plan. 06:14 We saw that in the southern part of Mexico 06:16 and Chiapas, you know-- Yes, absolutely yes. 06:18 The evangelical and the Adventist 06:20 did not support the festival, the traditional festival, 06:24 and they were treated as enemy of the culture, 06:26 enemy of the traditions. 06:28 And then the other things that we've passed on before, 06:30 we needed to state it again, 06:31 very often minorities within the culture are picked on 06:35 the by the majority religions in the state 06:37 who may not have horse in that race per say 06:41 but they see or hear within our culture 06:44 these people are at war with many of our good citizens 06:48 something must be wrong, that's just religious rivalry. 06:51 You know, it has always been the case, 06:53 you remember the situation 06:55 when part of Europe become Protestant, 06:58 and the other part you know, strongly catholic. 07:01 It means the Protestant in a catholic countries were 07:04 accused to have a special links with the Protestant countries, 07:08 and sometime that was correct 07:10 because they had no chance to survive 07:12 without receiving help that was specially the French Huguenot 07:16 and that was so strong that 07:18 when the Huguenot came to America for Caroline, 07:22 you know one year later the Spanish came 07:25 and they kill all of them not because they were French 07:29 but because they were Lutherans and that was their crime. 07:34 It means you know, that makes think religion can make things 07:38 very complex on the political level. 07:40 This is why it's so important 07:42 to respect people from different countries. 07:45 You know you can be Baptist, Adventist, Catholic 07:49 but you leave your citizen of these countries, 07:52 you have to be a good citizen of the countries and-- 07:55 That's a good word you use, significant word, respect. 08:00 We don't use tolerance very much, 08:02 you talk about the Huguenots 08:03 there was the acts of toleration in France 08:07 but toleration is a pretty close cousin 08:10 to dislike and even persecution. 08:14 Toleration every time we talk about tolerance 08:16 it means sorry were not able to exterminate you, you are still, 08:21 during two centuries we tried but you are still here, 08:24 now we have to find a solution. 08:26 Okay, until the next time, the next war we tolerate you. 08:31 And of course, this what the first thing that 08:33 Protestant of a son of a pastor in France 08:36 at the revolution say that, 08:38 we don't want to use any longer of the word of toleration 08:44 because that is not toleration that we ask for, 08:47 we ask for freedom, religious freedom and respect. 08:50 Because I think respect goes very close with seeing 08:53 he is an other human being, 08:55 they have the obligations as I have to find God, 08:57 and their way of finding it I may not understand 09:00 but I have to respect and allow, 09:03 and even protect your right to carry on that way. 09:06 But you can understand how its difficult you know, 09:10 when you are a member of religious minorities 09:13 with natural connection with all the countries, 09:17 with people living in another countries 09:19 which may help you to be seen by the majority of the people 09:24 in your own country as traitor 09:27 or potential enemy of this state. 09:29 And you know, you can have one or two problems 09:32 an article in the press and so on 09:34 and you are immediately treated like an enemy. 09:38 Let me ask you an interesting question, 09:39 and I don't think we've even 09:41 gotten under this on this program before, 09:43 but we've had a huge economic, 09:45 global economic collapse in 2008, 09:48 how has that affected religious liberty globally? 09:51 Is that been a help or hinderers to religious liberty? 09:54 Oh that's a difficult question to answer. 09:57 I think kind of crisis may make religious freedom 10:02 more difficult to be defended and promoted. 10:06 It hasn't always destroyed in every country, 10:08 but its raised the stakes I think. 10:10 Yeah, because the reaction of the people 10:12 when you have to face a big crisis 10:14 is to go back their heritage to their tradition and to say, 10:18 and as they did in a past you know, 10:20 we have a problem because we have this people, 10:23 you know the Waldensian, not the Waldensians 10:26 but the Albigensian were exterminated 10:29 its because, you know, 10:30 the country had to face a lot of problem, 10:32 and someone had a vision, the dream and a vision 10:34 and say God is not happy with these heretics. 10:39 So, you know, where we are now? 10:42 Do you think that things are improving, 10:44 that we have reason for hope even as you said before, 10:46 in many countries Middle East for example 10:48 I think it's going the wrong direction 10:50 but is there a reason for hope? 10:52 I think that there is reason of hope all the time, 10:55 especially I should say that 10:58 we know that I will be more and more difficult, 11:00 but we have to continue because you know, 11:02 in defending religious freedom we show that 11:05 we believe in a God who love us and that is important. 11:09 We also show to people that we follow Jesus 11:12 and Jesus respected religious freedom for all. 11:16 The Bible presents a very interesting view 11:19 of the over site of heaven 11:21 and of Gods agents in human history. 11:24 In fact on one occasion the angel told Daniel 11:26 that he'd been contending with the prince of Persia 11:29 but he had resisted him. 11:31 When we look back on some of the recent wars, 11:33 the great World Wars I and II, 11:36 it sort of obvious that things got out of control, 11:39 and in spite of the political realities 11:41 the alliances started to kick in 11:44 and one country after another cascaded toward war. 11:48 The war though that I think is relevant and most interesting 11:52 in religious liberty is the war that preceded them, 11:54 the Crimean war where on a matter of religion 11:57 and who was to be the defender of the faith 12:00 for Christians in the Middle East, 12:02 the great political and religious powers 12:04 of the time went to war in the Crimean, 12:07 on the Crimean Peninsula in a bitter war, 12:10 where hundreds of thousands of lives were lost 12:12 and not much was gain, 12:14 but all in the name of religion and religious championship. 12:18 We need to remember today 12:20 that often there is a religious dynamic to events. 12:22 We need to keep our eyes open to the movement 12:26 not just of wicked and sinful man 12:28 but to the influences of angels. 12:31 For religious liberty, for Liberty Insider 12:33 this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-01-15