Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Again this is Lincoln Steed,
editor of the Liberty Magazine
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with my guests John Graz.
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And before the break, John,
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we were riffing on a bit
about one particular area
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of the world at
the moment the Ukraine
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and of course the annexation
there of the Crimean peninsula,
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but the
religious liberty situation
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is pretty broad based, isn't it?
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There is lot going on,
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and what's another country that
you can think of right now that
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what's commenting on that
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this is a very
interesting religious dynamic.
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Yeah, you know, you
have always the same,
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more or less the same
country like North Korea,
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Saudi Arabia, Middle
East where you have tension
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and somewhere you
have still persecution
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of minorities
like the Christians
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are persecuted in
several countries.
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But you have also in
some part of the world,
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Muslim now who are prosecuted.
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That's
interesting that in Africa
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you know,
Central Africa Republic
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the western power
especially the French
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send military, the
army to protect the Muslim
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which were
persecuted by the Christian,
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and it becomes
really a very complex
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because of course the Christian
these country are afraid that
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you know, they will
have the same problem
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with the extremist
Muslim that they had
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in other countries of Africa
like in Nigeria, like Chad
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and some becomes
more and more complicated.
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Sometime you have a
little light like in Tunisia
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where you know the Muslim--
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After the Arab Spring
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Yeah Arab Spring and the Muslim
Islamic party is in charge,
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but in spite of that
the strong reaction of those
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who are in favor of
democratic countries,
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made that they put
freedom of conscience
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in their
constitution that's incredible,
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that's probably the
first country in Middle East
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where you have
freedom of conscience.
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there are some improvements
I don't think we would want
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to characterize Tunisia in
its freedom on an absolute level
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say its the United
States or France or somewhere,
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but relatively speaking
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compared to some of
the surroundings countries
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that's wonderful
gleam of light, isn't it?
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You know, you are
always to remember that
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that's not done once for all,
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it means you have always
the possibility to react.
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That's very difficult
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and its very unique about
Tunisia and about Middle East.
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They're really the trans today
in favor of religious freedom.
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But even you know in
countries like Vietnam,
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you have a pocket of--
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I will not say religious freedom
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pocket of more freedom
where churches can have meeting.
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In China the
same, China, can have
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a very strong reaction against
religion in some part of China,
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and more liberal
politics in some other parts.
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Means we are
really when we try to make
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an appreciation about
religious freedom in the world
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I should say that
the trans is not good
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but they are still
some pocket of hope.
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But tell me if I'm right--
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But we have to you
know, to conclude it
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this is why it's so
important that in countries
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where we have
religious freedom we promote--
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We protect it.
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We become
visible. And be vigilant.
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Be vigilant and we
ask our government really
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to do something for
those who are persecuted.
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It seems to me
you mentioned China,
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and they're many hopeful
signs coming out of China
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but under the
hardcore communist regime
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there was a serious problem
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because at roots
Marxism and communism
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sees religion
as a positive evil.
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I mean it's
incompatible with this system.
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And China is moved
to hybrid system at best
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sort of a new
thing we don't know
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but it's certainly a hybrid
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between
capitalism and communism.
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Its not as
ideological and the persecution
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which does continue
its seems to me now,
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its more structural
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if people of faith
keep to their on business
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and don't interfere
with the governments plans,
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they're not
rigorous in opposing them.
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But as long as they allow
or they're willing to live
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under a cohesive
controlling governmental system,
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and that's where we have
the problem now, isn't it?
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Organizational, if they
think religion is free lancing
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is meeting without
knowledge of the government,
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they can be brutal in China
but yet religion is advancing
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with the westernization/
capitalism of China.
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I see it opening
things up progressively.
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It means, you
know, China as you say
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there are some part of China
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where really
religion is booming,
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some other part
where they are oppressed.
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You know, it depends where
but something which is really,
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you can see more and more
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including in our
democratic countries
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or liberal countries is
the control of the state.
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You know more and
more in some countries,
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where you have a freedom,
the state wanted to protect
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against the
terrorism and so on and so on.
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And you put in the
place, you set up a system
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which at the end
wants to control everything,
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including religion
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and of course you'll start
with the buyers come and so on,
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and when you're the
member of religious minorities
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its very easy to be
listed as a bad people
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or potentially bad people.
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And particularly--
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They're, they are
quiet now you know,
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but you know maybe in few years,
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they will become
very dangerous and so on,
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and it means you can
kind of favor paranoid.
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And at the end
it goes, you know,
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on the right direction,
to the wrong direction.
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And very often minorities have
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an identification
with some other country,
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certainly the case for
Christianity in the Middle East
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they would see at us
a beachhead in China,
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and beachhead of
western influence.
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Very often minority religions,
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have most
distinctive belief system
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so may be one or
two of their members
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have done something egregious
that catches public attention,
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and they sort of
look cross ways of them.
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Very often minority religions
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don't socially
adhere the same practices
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and in case of
Seventh-day Adventist,
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your day of worship
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is not the normal
down day for the economy,
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so you seen is
disruptive to governmental plan.
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We saw that in the
southern part of Mexico
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and Chiapas, you
know-- Yes, absolutely yes.
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The evangelical
and the Adventist
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did not support the festival,
the traditional festival,
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and they were treated
as enemy of the culture,
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enemy of the traditions.
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And then the other things
that we've passed on before,
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we needed to state it again,
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very often minorities
within the culture are picked on
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the by the majority
religions in the state
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who may not have
horse in that race per say
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but they see or
hear within our culture
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these people are at war
with many of our good citizens
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something must be wrong,
that's just religious rivalry.
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You know, it has
always been the case,
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you remember the situation
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when part of
Europe become Protestant,
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and the other part you
know, strongly catholic.
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It means the Protestant
in a catholic countries were
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accused to have a special links
with the Protestant countries,
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and sometime that was correct
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because they had
no chance to survive
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without receiving help that was
specially the French Huguenot
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and that was so strong that
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when the Huguenot came
to America for Caroline,
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you know one year
later the Spanish came
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and they kill all of them
not because they were French
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but because they were Lutherans
and that was their crime.
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It means you know, that makes
think religion can make things
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very complex on
the political level.
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This is why it's so important
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to respect people
from different countries.
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You know you can be
Baptist, Adventist, Catholic
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but you leave your
citizen of these countries,
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you have to be a good
citizen of the countries and--
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That's a good word you
use, significant word, respect.
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We don't use
tolerance very much,
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you talk about the Huguenots
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there was the acts
of toleration in France
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but toleration is
a pretty close cousin
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to dislike and even persecution.
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Toleration every time
we talk about tolerance
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it means sorry were not able to
exterminate you, you are still,
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during two centuries we
tried but you are still here,
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now we have to find a solution.
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Okay, until the next time,
the next war we tolerate you.
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And of course, this
what the first thing that
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Protestant of a son
of a pastor in France
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at the revolution say that,
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we don't want to use any
longer of the word of toleration
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because that is not
toleration that we ask for,
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we ask for freedom,
religious freedom and respect.
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Because I think respect
goes very close with seeing
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he is an other human being,
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they have the obligations
as I have to find God,
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and their way of
finding it I may not understand
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but I have to respect and allow,
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and even protect your
right to carry on that way.
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But you can understand
how its difficult you know,
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when you are a member
of religious minorities
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with natural connection
with all the countries,
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with people living
in another countries
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which may help you to be seen
by the majority of the people
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in your own country as traitor
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or potential
enemy of this state.
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And you know, you can
have one or two problems
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an article in
the press and so on
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and you are immediately
treated like an enemy.
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Let me ask you an
interesting question,
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and I don't think we've even
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gotten under this
on this program before,
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but we've had a huge economic,
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global economic
collapse in 2008,
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how has that affected
religious liberty globally?
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Is that been a help or
hinderers to religious liberty?
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Oh that's a
difficult question to answer.
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I think kind of crisis
may make religious freedom
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more difficult to be
defended and promoted.
00:10:02.51\00:10:06.27
It hasn't always
destroyed in every country,
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but its raised
the stakes I think.
00:10:08.51\00:10:10.88
Yeah, because the
reaction of the people
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when you have to
face a big crisis
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is to go back their heritage
to their tradition and to say,
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and as they did
in a past you know,
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we have a problem
because we have this people,
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you know the
Waldensian, not the Waldensians
00:10:23.44\00:10:26.37
but the
Albigensian were exterminated
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its because, you know,
00:10:29.11\00:10:30.21
the country had to
face a lot of problem,
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and someone had a
vision, the dream and a vision
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and say God is not
happy with these heretics.
00:10:34.91\00:10:39.91
So, you know, where we are now?
00:10:39.94\00:10:42.21
Do you think that
things are improving,
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that we have reason for
hope even as you said before,
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in many countries
Middle East for example
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I think it's going
the wrong direction
00:10:48.56\00:10:50.25
but is there a reason for hope?
00:10:50.28\00:10:52.49
I think that there is
reason of hope all the time,
00:10:52.52\00:10:55.87
especially I should say that
00:10:55.90\00:10:58.13
we know that I will be
more and more difficult,
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but we have to
continue because you know,
00:11:00.30\00:11:02.51
in defending
religious freedom we show that
00:11:02.54\00:11:05.41
we believe in a God who
love us and that is important.
00:11:05.44\00:11:09.63
We also show to
people that we follow Jesus
00:11:09.66\00:11:12.52
and Jesus respected
religious freedom for all.
00:11:12.55\00:11:16.56
The Bible presents a
very interesting view
00:11:16.59\00:11:19.42
of the over site of heaven
00:11:19.45\00:11:21.40
and of Gods
agents in human history.
00:11:21.43\00:11:24.25
In fact on one
occasion the angel told Daniel
00:11:24.28\00:11:26.84
that he'd been contending
with the prince of Persia
00:11:26.87\00:11:29.55
but he had resisted him.
00:11:29.58\00:11:31.38
When we look back on
some of the recent wars,
00:11:31.41\00:11:33.70
the great World Wars I and II,
00:11:33.73\00:11:36.95
it sort of obvious that
things got out of control,
00:11:36.98\00:11:39.64
and in spite of
the political realities
00:11:39.67\00:11:41.62
the alliances started to kick in
00:11:41.65\00:11:44.30
and one country after
another cascaded toward war.
00:11:44.33\00:11:48.26
The war though that I think
is relevant and most interesting
00:11:48.29\00:11:52.02
in religious liberty is
the war that preceded them,
00:11:52.05\00:11:54.69
the Crimean war where
on a matter of religion
00:11:54.72\00:11:57.59
and who was to be
the defender of the faith
00:11:57.62\00:12:00.38
for Christians
in the Middle East,
00:12:00.41\00:12:02.04
the great political
and religious powers
00:12:02.07\00:12:04.79
of the time went
to war in the Crimean,
00:12:04.82\00:12:07.36
on the Crimean
Peninsula in a bitter war,
00:12:07.39\00:12:10.41
where hundreds of
thousands of lives were lost
00:12:10.44\00:12:12.46
and not much was gain,
00:12:12.49\00:12:14.49
but all in the name of religion
and religious championship.
00:12:14.52\00:12:18.68
We need to remember today
00:12:18.71\00:12:20.07
that often there is a
religious dynamic to events.
00:12:20.10\00:12:22.91
We need to keep our
eyes open to the movement
00:12:22.94\00:12:26.00
not just of
wicked and sinful man
00:12:26.03\00:12:28.69
but to the influences of angels.
00:12:28.72\00:12:30.99
For religious
liberty, for Liberty Insider
00:12:31.02\00:12:33.93
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:33.96\00:12:38.41