Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:00:06.24\00:00:07.95
Before the break with
guest Ambassador Seiple
00:00:07.98\00:00:10.70
we were talking about
what was tied up and being
00:00:10.73\00:00:14.83
the first ever US
ambassador for Religious Freedom
00:00:14.86\00:00:17.69
and how you interact
it with another entity
00:00:17.72\00:00:21.15
that many people
might not even know
00:00:21.18\00:00:22.95
existed the US Commission
for Religious Freedom.
00:00:22.98\00:00:27.64
First all I need to say
00:00:27.67\00:00:29.16
its wonderful
that in United States
00:00:29.19\00:00:31.16
for whatever complicated
political machinations
00:00:31.19\00:00:34.07
ended up with
such a broad structure
00:00:34.10\00:00:37.34
just concerning
religious liberty
00:00:37.37\00:00:39.07
which or religious freedom
00:00:39.10\00:00:40.41
which shows
that it is important.
00:00:40.44\00:00:42.51
We have always hoped
00:00:42.54\00:00:43.57
that there will be
others that would follow.
00:00:43.60\00:00:46.04
We're hopeful that we
could see it in the UK,
00:00:46.07\00:00:49.45
we could see it in Australia,
we could see in Canada.
00:00:49.48\00:00:52.76
Well, Canada has
essentially followed, yeah.
00:00:52.79\00:00:54.70
Yeah, has stunned this
00:00:54.73\00:00:56.61
and I have met with
new ambassador there
00:00:56.64\00:00:59.30
and we have been
on programs together.
00:00:59.33\00:01:01.95
And so it's nice to
have someone else there.
00:01:01.98\00:01:04.77
But it was almost
like you go ahead you do it
00:01:04.80\00:01:08.07
and we'll be the
silent partner behind it.
00:01:08.10\00:01:10.24
We, we don't want to
put our foot in that water
00:01:10.27\00:01:12.47
but we really are glad
that you're taking the lead.
00:01:12.50\00:01:17.58
Yes, that's true but I
wish we had more, more countries
00:01:17.61\00:01:21.50
that would have
come along side of us
00:01:21.53\00:01:23.31
and we could have done so
much together than individually.
00:01:23.34\00:01:26.83
Did you get much help
from the European Union or any?
00:01:26.86\00:01:32.16
During my tenure none.
00:01:32.19\00:01:34.60
During my tenure none
because this was all very new
00:01:34.63\00:01:37.67
coming into being I
mean, European Union.
00:01:37.70\00:01:40.20
Even the European Union. Yeah.
00:01:40.23\00:01:41.35
There is sort of-- And
they had other fish to fry.
00:01:41.38\00:01:44.07
Yeah.
00:01:44.10\00:01:45.13
And I guess we did too
00:01:45.16\00:01:46.98
and you have to go where
you can get the biggest bang.
00:01:47.01\00:01:52.51
I didn't work
at all with the UN.
00:01:52.54\00:01:55.56
Now the UN has programs
00:01:55.59\00:01:57.47
that are helpful under
the UN disappeared today.
00:01:57.50\00:02:00.97
We would have to recreate
effect similarly tomorrow.
00:02:01.00\00:02:04.21
But when push comes to show
00:02:04.24\00:02:05.81
then you have got a, a manmade
disaster a war, a conflict.
00:02:05.84\00:02:10.99
UN has a terrible track record
whether its Rwanda or Srebrenica
00:02:11.02\00:02:16.56
they were gonna a
terrible track record.
00:02:16.59\00:02:18.41
So you have to pick
your partners carefully.
00:02:18.44\00:02:20.28
Yeah.
00:02:20.31\00:02:21.34
And we'd normally
would meet with these folks
00:02:21.37\00:02:23.90
and ambassadors in Sweden
and Norway and Great Britain
00:02:23.93\00:02:30.63
because they were
at least symbolical.
00:02:30.66\00:02:33.91
Yeah, in terms of
what we were trying to do
00:02:33.94\00:02:35.91
and we do
quietly behind the scenes
00:02:35.94\00:02:38.30
what they could
do to help our job.
00:02:38.33\00:02:39.94
And what was some of the areas
00:02:39.97\00:02:41.31
that you got involved
with during your tenure?
00:02:41.34\00:02:44.97
I could guess some
of them the hotspots
00:02:45.00\00:02:46.82
where there is
religious conflict?
00:02:46.85\00:02:48.59
Well, once a
year you had to name
00:02:48.62\00:02:52.66
and shame and blame
the worst offenders.
00:02:52.69\00:02:57.33
And this was about
5% of our entire year,
00:02:57.36\00:02:59.69
5% but if you are the media
it was, it was the big story.
00:02:59.72\00:03:04.02
Who is on the list? Who
do you have on the list?
00:03:04.05\00:03:06.61
And during the first year
we had countries like China
00:03:06.64\00:03:10.55
but not
countries like North Korea.
00:03:10.58\00:03:13.03
So how can you put China
00:03:13.06\00:03:14.23
when especially
this came from China?
00:03:14.26\00:03:15.92
How could you put us on the list
00:03:15.95\00:03:17.65
and you don't even know
what's going on North Korea.
00:03:17.68\00:03:19.96
That was the part of the problem
00:03:19.99\00:03:21.02
we didn't know as
much about North Korea
00:03:21.05\00:03:23.56
as we knew about China.
00:03:23.59\00:03:25.22
North Korea has
since made the list.
00:03:25.25\00:03:28.10
They've made the list.
00:03:28.13\00:03:29.16
The list of most egregious
violators of religious freedom.
00:03:29.19\00:03:32.37
Did you ever get to North Korea?
00:03:32.40\00:03:34.22
No, no, no.
00:03:34.25\00:03:36.87
And during the
course of my tenure
00:03:36.90\00:03:38.33
which was like
25 months I became
00:03:38.36\00:03:43.55
what's the word where
they don't let you back in non
00:03:43.58\00:03:48.11
anyway I was, I was refused.
00:03:48.14\00:03:49.92
Persona non grata.
00:03:49.95\00:03:50.98
Persona non grata, thank you
00:03:51.01\00:03:52.88
see I mentally put that off
00:03:52.91\00:03:54.65
because I, I who wants
to be persona non grata.
00:03:54.68\00:03:56.68
A strong term but I
could see your fishing toward.
00:03:56.71\00:03:58.65
Yeah, yeah well, I was in China
after they get me on the west
00:03:58.68\00:04:03.43
and in India.
00:04:03.46\00:04:05.48
India is a little bit
interesting and different
00:04:05.51\00:04:08.67
but India sees itself as the
biggest democracy of the world
00:04:08.70\00:04:13.05
and anybody that
would say something
00:04:13.08\00:04:15.01
that would be negative
about the democratic values
00:04:15.04\00:04:18.35
it's almost automatically
a persona non grata.
00:04:18.38\00:04:20.83
Well, it's a reasonably
functioning democracy.
00:04:20.86\00:04:24.71
I had may be 50%
of the Indians liking
00:04:24.74\00:04:27.21
when I was doing
50% of the Indians
00:04:27.24\00:04:30.70
both abroad and
in the United States
00:04:30.73\00:04:33.24
in terms of their
communities in the US,
00:04:33.27\00:04:35.93
thinking that I
was a worse thing
00:04:35.96\00:04:37.15
than it's ever
happened to the country.
00:04:37.18\00:04:39.55
So outside of
those two countries
00:04:39.58\00:04:42.36
the rest of the countries
I had considerable freedom.
00:04:42.39\00:04:46.86
And I would say that the,
00:04:46.89\00:04:49.25
the folks who man
the Middle East desk
00:04:49.28\00:04:52.42
who were most concerned
about bringing in one more issue
00:04:52.45\00:04:56.60
like religion to the bilateral
to our bilateral relationships.
00:04:56.63\00:05:01.51
They were the most
opposed to what I was doing.
00:05:01.54\00:05:03.82
This complicated issue for us.
00:05:03.85\00:05:05.00
But they came around
first of all we sent,
00:05:05.03\00:05:08.48
we put our best
ambassadors in those hotspots
00:05:08.51\00:05:11.48
and so we could talk and
we could have conversations
00:05:11.51\00:05:15.37
and they were once they saw
00:05:15.40\00:05:17.01
that I was in out to
destroy their relationship
00:05:17.04\00:05:19.47
with the country
through a punishment mechanism.
00:05:19.50\00:05:23.22
They came around and
we did a lot of good.
00:05:23.25\00:05:25.36
And so where did you
see the most positive
00:05:25.39\00:05:29.14
obviously
positive one of feedback
00:05:29.17\00:05:31.94
but reaction or results?
00:05:31.97\00:05:34.94
Well, again we
had a program on Laos
00:05:34.97\00:05:37.54
but Laos was one
of the early ones.
00:05:37.57\00:05:40.21
I remember
developing what became
00:05:40.24\00:05:42.77
a very, very strong
friendship over many years
00:05:42.80\00:05:46.06
with ambassador Wang of Laos.
00:05:46.09\00:05:49.49
And he would come
over to state department
00:05:49.52\00:05:52.55
and the state
department wanted to put
00:05:52.58\00:05:55.19
somebody on
egregious performing less
00:05:55.22\00:05:59.04
why not do Laos
no one is going to.
00:05:59.07\00:06:01.25
It's like
Burma, why not do Burma
00:06:01.28\00:06:03.00
no one is going
to argue with that.
00:06:03.03\00:06:04.72
So we get that, that going
that kind of mentality going.
00:06:04.75\00:06:08.06
And he would come over and say
00:06:08.09\00:06:09.17
but why do you want to do that
you're such a strong country
00:06:09.20\00:06:11.22
we're such a weak country?
00:06:11.25\00:06:13.15
And I bought that, why
would you want to do that?
00:06:13.18\00:06:16.46
Why don't want
to try to fix this
00:06:16.49\00:06:18.54
as opposed to
throwing the book at them
00:06:18.57\00:06:21.12
and taking in a
country that's got
00:06:21.15\00:06:22.69
this high literacy
rate, high poverty rate.
00:06:22.72\00:06:24.99
They need help, yeah.
00:06:25.02\00:06:26.08
And they need all
the help in the world
00:06:26.11\00:06:28.26
and we are gonna step on them
00:06:28.29\00:06:30.31
through a
religious freedom violations.
00:06:30.34\00:06:32.33
Let's solve that one so
we can solve the other things
00:06:32.36\00:06:34.97
and when we began to do that
00:06:35.00\00:06:36.71
which is promotion
rather than punishment
00:06:36.74\00:06:39.08
we got good results.
00:06:39.11\00:06:40.14
Now did you go to Burma,
00:06:40.17\00:06:41.20
you have mentioned
Myanmar, Myanmar or Burma?
00:06:41.23\00:06:44.00
I have been to
Burma with World Vision.
00:06:44.03\00:06:46.87
And I'm on a family foundation
00:06:46.90\00:06:49.75
that doesn't offer
a lot of work in Burma
00:06:49.78\00:06:52.36
so there is a lot
there that I'm closed to.
00:06:52.39\00:06:55.10
But if you look at
what was going on in Burma
00:06:55.13\00:06:57.14
the first year they
became one on the list.
00:06:57.17\00:07:00.69
And I have to say now
they're 13-14 years later
00:07:00.72\00:07:04.96
I was ambivalent about that.
00:07:04.99\00:07:07.12
They had all kinds of
coercive activities devoted to.
00:07:07.15\00:07:11.60
And they were equal
opportunity oppressor.
00:07:11.63\00:07:13.39
Yes.
00:07:13.42\00:07:14.45
But when you looked at religion
00:07:14.48\00:07:17.26
it was always taking place
00:07:17.29\00:07:18.75
religious freedom
violations on the border.
00:07:18.78\00:07:21.46
They are very, very
conscience of their borders.
00:07:21.49\00:07:23.57
The Koreans and
other groups like that.
00:07:23.60\00:07:24.81
Yeah, but you can have
Christians in Mandalay.
00:07:24.84\00:07:29.04
You could have
Christians in Yangon
00:07:29.07\00:07:31.49
and they keep changing
the names back and forth.
00:07:31.52\00:07:33.88
But you could have
00:07:33.91\00:07:34.94
yeah Christians there
who lived in relative peace.
00:07:34.97\00:07:37.45
No problems, or other religious,
religions but at the border
00:07:37.48\00:07:42.21
and now cross the
border they have a huge problem
00:07:42.24\00:07:45.06
with the, the
Rohingya from Bangladesh.
00:07:45.09\00:07:50.27
We ran an article in
Liberty recently on that.
00:07:50.30\00:07:52.54
Yeah.
00:07:52.57\00:07:54.74
You probably remember when
Dr Graz and I went to Myanmar
00:07:54.77\00:07:59.10
we had they said
the first ever meeting
00:07:59.13\00:08:01.33
of all the major
religions got together there
00:08:01.36\00:08:03.43
and we had a discussion.
00:08:03.46\00:08:05.13
And they did give
instances of persecution
00:08:05.16\00:08:07.64
but what I picked up was
as much societal governmental
00:08:07.67\00:08:12.71
because its prejudices
within their societies.
00:08:12.74\00:08:15.59
Sometimes even from the Buddhist
it can be quite extreme.
00:08:15.62\00:08:18.29
Well, that's true but here
I will make a strong statement
00:08:18.32\00:08:22.44
because we expend a
lot of dollars private
00:08:22.47\00:08:25.27
and public dollars in
Burma now to help things along
00:08:25.30\00:08:28.46
and to make things right.
00:08:28.49\00:08:29.94
And World Vision has
been there for 20 some years
00:08:29.97\00:08:32.56
and have spent tens
and millions of dollars
00:08:32.59\00:08:34.78
and have done a
lot of good work.
00:08:34.81\00:08:36.87
But there has to
continue to be fed
00:08:36.90\00:08:42.30
and we have to make
sure that we pick the leaders
00:08:42.33\00:08:46.08
that were going to
support very carefully
00:08:46.11\00:08:49.66
and we are going to have to let
them know at point of gifting
00:08:49.69\00:08:54.07
the values that
lie behind these gifts.
00:08:54.10\00:08:58.38
Because if you don't solve the
religious freedom issue in Burma
00:08:58.41\00:09:03.83
you're not gonna solve
any others lot of issues.
00:09:03.86\00:09:06.61
We all know working
at religious liberty
00:09:06.64\00:09:08.20
its key to civil
liberties generally.
00:09:08.23\00:09:09.73
That's right, that's right.
00:09:09.76\00:09:11.27
And you can't have
one without the other.
00:09:11.30\00:09:12.68
And that's the factor
that you first look at
00:09:12.71\00:09:14.83
when trying to see
where a country is,
00:09:14.86\00:09:17.10
in terms of its development
00:09:17.13\00:09:18.81
under their
treatment already with faiths.
00:09:18.84\00:09:20.91
And that will tell you and
awful lot of about that country.
00:09:20.94\00:09:23.96
So until this is solved in Burma
00:09:23.99\00:09:27.12
none of the other large
problems will get solved.
00:09:27.15\00:09:30.78
So looking back on it
00:09:30.81\00:09:33.20
and our time is
sifting by quickly
00:09:33.23\00:09:36.56
obviously I'm sure it
was a wonderful experience
00:09:36.59\00:09:38.99
but you left with optimism
00:09:39.02\00:09:40.78
they were I
guess Laos senses that
00:09:40.81\00:09:44.22
but is there continuing
need for US and US ambassador
00:09:44.25\00:09:48.60
may be it's a better
way to put things so.
00:09:48.63\00:09:49.66
Yeah I think so.
Yeah absolutely so.
00:09:49.69\00:09:52.30
I left it in the situation
where we began to think
00:09:52.33\00:09:56.47
about what will do
after the state department
00:09:56.50\00:09:59.35
after state
department we started
00:09:59.38\00:10:00.80
the institute
for global engagement
00:10:00.83\00:10:03.73
much more nimble faster
didn't have to take things
00:10:03.76\00:10:08.21
through 50 different
offices to get approval.
00:10:08.24\00:10:10.64
We did the kind of
things that were necessary to do
00:10:10.67\00:10:14.18
in a private
situation that we are used to do
00:10:14.21\00:10:17.03
in the public one.
00:10:17.06\00:10:20.80
To be an ambassador is
an awesome responsibility.
00:10:20.83\00:10:24.33
Before there was
even American Republic,
00:10:24.36\00:10:27.42
Benjamin Franklin was
effectively acting that way
00:10:27.45\00:10:31.04
in Europe with the French
00:10:31.07\00:10:33.23
and Thomas Jefferson was
one of our early ambassadors.
00:10:33.26\00:10:38.05
But what I remember personally
is just before he died
00:10:38.08\00:10:42.30
my father has he
faced his final surgery
00:10:42.33\00:10:45.91
and was being
wheeled into that operation
00:10:45.94\00:10:47.84
that he didn't lived through.
00:10:47.87\00:10:50.11
He said to the young man
00:10:50.14\00:10:51.63
that was about to wheeling
down to the operating studio.
00:10:51.66\00:10:56.47
He said, did you know
he said I'm an ambassador
00:10:56.50\00:11:00.00
and the young man
looked and startled
00:11:00.03\00:11:02.02
though he was so
important personage
00:11:02.05\00:11:04.66
to be dealt carefully with him.
00:11:04.69\00:11:07.05
Dad said I'm
ambassador for Christ.
00:11:07.08\00:11:09.97
At the end of the day each
of us have that important role.
00:11:10.00\00:11:13.79
Ambassador
Seiple had the privilege
00:11:13.82\00:11:15.61
to combine that with
civil responsibility.
00:11:15.64\00:11:18.53
But each of us is called
to be ambassador for Christ
00:11:18.56\00:11:21.77
and ambassador
for religious freedom
00:11:21.80\00:11:25.49
and all the
privileges that go with them.
00:11:25.52\00:11:28.99
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:29.02\00:11:32.42