Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Robert Seiple
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000249B
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00:06 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:08 Before the break with guest Ambassador Robert Seiple. 00:13 We had started off talking about the Arab Spring 00:15 and we're getting very philosophical I think, 00:16 we're endeavoring some parallels to the reformation 00:19 and all parallels break down eventually 00:21 but they could perhaps shed some light on the situation. 00:26 And many people have said it's not new to this discussion 00:28 that perhaps Islam and the Islamic world 00:31 the Arab world certainly might need 00:34 something dynamically like the reformation. 00:38 But what do you think about that is, 00:40 what could change the status quo oh, 00:42 not the status quo there are no status quo 00:44 what could change these intractable dynamics 00:47 in the Middle East? 00:49 Well, of course meant properly. 00:51 On a religious front? Yeah. 00:53 These are always difficult issues 00:56 if we haven't been able to figure it out in 2,000 years 00:59 and may be its going to take a little bit 01:00 more than the next 20 minutes. 01:02 But of course we always wanted to try the... 01:08 something has to happen in the leadership overall 01:11 of the Islamic faith and they have to get 01:15 to that point on their own. 01:17 If they're plotted by non-Muslims 01:20 it just won't happen. 01:22 So they've got a come to a point where they say, 01:24 look, if we're going to make any sense out of our faith 01:28 and have it be an attractive faith. 01:31 So right now it's not an attractive faith. 01:35 You're told what you can't do 01:37 and if you do a certain thing then you're cast out 01:40 or you're head comes off or something. 01:43 And it's hard to turn into attractive faith. 01:46 I had a, I had a discussio in Moscow once 01:49 with head of the Orthodox Church though, 01:52 the Russian Orthodox Church and the Islamic head 01:58 Imam of Moscow. 02:00 And there was a time when we were bombing Kasimov. 02:04 So people were against the United States 02:06 for doing what it was doing 02:08 and not doing enough of what they were doing. 02:09 And so I was talking to both someone from the orthodox faith 02:12 and someone from the Muslim faith 02:14 what should have had different points of view towards to me. 02:18 But in Russia they hung together, they stand together 02:21 and conspire sometimes with the government 02:24 to get put something into motion. 02:27 And I remember the Imam saying 02:29 we need to get our market share up. 02:33 And I said what does it say about your theology? 02:36 When you are talking to market share. 02:37 Yeah, about market share self interest from the unity. 02:39 Yeah, and so the theology it had nothing to do 02:45 with the direction he wanted his faith to go and vice versa. 02:50 And somehow this is true of all faiths. 02:53 All faiths have to be making a positive contribution 02:57 because values and interest come together for the individual 03:02 who wants to be a practitioner of that particular faith. 03:05 And it if that happens you can be pulled off 03:08 in many, many directions. 03:10 And this has what happened in the Sunni, Shia divide. 03:13 Something that happened back in the 6th Century 03:15 is pulling people apart and creating an identity 03:19 that is not amenable to other. 03:23 And that's true and even as you're saying market share 03:25 it just strikes me that's heading peerlessly 03:29 close to what even we have tried within this country. 03:31 Religious groups seeking in essence political power 03:36 I think if it's ever to sold it will have to be sold 03:39 on the personal level not by the leadership of Islam 03:43 any more than the leadership of Christianity. 03:45 You know the reformation could never be resolved 03:48 by the Pope and Martin Luther 03:51 personally discussing something. 03:53 It was bigger than that. 03:55 And even if in some magic way that I think 03:58 this of have interest in your comment. 04:00 If some key figures in Islam and its hard to find them 04:04 because there is no Pope, 04:06 there is no head of the southern Baptist 04:10 or whatever the best you can come up with in qualm 04:13 they might be a recognized seminary 04:16 that trains most of the clerics in one country in Iran. 04:20 But even if you could if the people are on chase 04:23 you would have the same trouble, wouldn't you. 04:25 The issue as it I believe with Islam 04:28 its community attitude and cultural expression 04:32 of their religious faith. 04:33 And from our religious liberty perspective 04:35 we somehow need to communicate to large swats 04:38 of the population in the whole world 04:40 but we are talking about this part 04:43 that it should be more than tolerance 04:45 which Quran does talk about. 04:46 You know this Dhimmi the tribute 04:48 that you had to pay to Islamic country. 04:50 There should be recognition that another faith 04:52 has the same human dignity right under heaven 04:55 and under Allah or God then anyone else. 04:58 1948, the nations of the world got together, 05:02 the religions of the world got together 05:05 and they put together something called 05:06 Universal Declaration of Human Rights. 05:08 Yeah, I was gonna have you reiterate that 05:09 when you mentioned at the first time. 05:12 And in that in the Article 18 05:14 it talks about religious freedom. 05:16 It talks about the ability to share ones faith 05:19 to change ones faith. 05:21 Which is very important. 05:22 And now today, I mean that was voted, voted 05:25 and after a lot of discussion Eleanor Roosevelt voted to do 05:29 and we go that voted in. 05:31 Today that would be voted down. 05:34 We couldn't put it to a vote. 05:36 We can't even talk about it. 05:38 Apparently that's because we never talked about why. 05:42 We talked about the what it had to incurred 05:44 but we never talked about the motivating factors. 05:48 Why do you believe this?[] 05:50 And so that was left out. 05:52 And I think once you leave out that motivating factor, 05:54 you know, for the Christian it's very clear. 05:58 God loves me has a plan for our lives. 06:00 Okay, it's very clear but if you take 06:03 that out together it begins to fall apart. 06:05 It begins to lose its power. 06:08 And so you have a document today that is not only powerless 06:13 it won't pass muster in a global vote. 06:17 Well, and the UN as even come up with that 06:18 I don't think they were passed 06:20 but wasn't they were deformation of religion initiative 06:24 that it seemed be rank added to it. 06:26 They would severe international penalties against 06:30 speaking or acting against 06:31 the interest of another religion. 06:34 That is very close to the blasphemy laws in Pakistan. 06:37 Right, yeah. 06:38 Well, had its origin in some of the part of the world. 06:41 And the blasphemy laws are terrible. 06:43 If you have a score to settle with someone 06:46 all you have to do is say he desecrated the Quran. 06:50 And then crowd of youths whatever comes 06:53 and they burned down the man shop. 06:55 Well there goes the competition. 06:56 I accomplished what I wanted. 06:58 And that sounds simplistic but unfortunately 07:00 that's how they work to put them. 07:01 But we have a case of a Seventh-day Adventist 07:03 in Pakistan. 07:04 At the moment he is jail on-appeal for a life sentence 07:08 for blasphemy he is very lucky because the penalty 07:10 could have been death. 07:12 But it was just over a romantic rivalry 07:15 he fell in love with this girl, he wasn't able to marry her 07:18 because the parents promised her 07:19 to some more wealthy person living in England. 07:22 He made the mistake of making a few phone calls 07:24 to his once fiancA and the husband reported him said 07:30 that he'd maligned Islam. 07:32 And it's unclear to us how he really did that 07:34 but on that alarm that charger alarm to get a rid of rival 07:38 he was sent to prison and convicted for life. 07:42 Well, what you have in Pakistan unfortunately 07:45 and some parts of India an environment of impunity. 07:49 You can do these things and get away with it. 07:52 And when you use that sense of justice 07:55 you lose a great deal of hope in all kinds 07:58 of intolerant behavior are allowed to go forth. 08:02 And so the blasphemy law is not good for anyone. 08:06 I think your point is very correct. 08:08 The universal declaration wonderful statement 08:11 in someway its small far reaching and high minded 08:16 then the religion clauses in the US Constitution. 08:20 We know what lies behind them. 08:22 But it's a wonderful statement 08:23 but may be its not enforceable 08:26 or universally accepted as it once was. 08:29 And yet is there room for hope. 08:31 I you have told me already you're a great optimist. 08:36 Well I have been optimist. 08:37 In the Middle East Arab Spring has gone a bit sore. 08:42 But is there any light at the end of the tunnel 08:45 that we can see out of this, this maelstrom perhaps 08:48 there is some yearnings toward some sort of religion freedom, 08:52 some sort of-- we needn't to be happy 08:55 they have tolerance wouldn't we in some places 08:56 which is a bad word 08:58 for religious freedom, generally. 09:01 The question is where do you look for hope. 09:03 Now if you look to the United Nations for hope 09:05 we just described in 1948 agreement 09:07 that were no longer past muster. 09:09 And if you look at the agreements 09:11 that came since then international covenants 09:15 they all began to kind of slide down 09:17 the slippery slope. 09:18 Now do you think part of it 09:19 and we are running out of time here 09:21 but when the universal declaration was passed 09:23 there was a much more membership in United Nations. 09:26 It's the mix now and not. 09:28 Probably it also came out of the horrific situation 09:31 of World War II. 09:32 And so what can we do? 09:35 Well, it's a desperations, yeah, to do something 09:36 coming together and supposed to kill each 09:37 other in the ways that we destroyed people 09:40 millions of people in World War II. 09:43 You know, where do we go now I mean, 09:44 at least philosophically looking at the, at the Arab Spring. 09:49 Can we hope and see some sort of improvement there? 09:52 We never lose hope but the key to hope 09:56 believing that tomorrows expectations 09:58 are better than reality of today. 10:00 The key to hope is to make sure that we got enough time 10:05 to do diligence and to work with the system 10:08 and to give it our best shot 10:10 and their hope may have a chance otherwise may be not. 10:18 A few years ago when I was studying history 10:20 I remember I had a nicely bound book of European history 10:25 and it was under the overall title "An Age of Revolution." 10:30 When I look at the Middle East particularly I see there 10:34 that we are living indeed or witnessing indeed 10:37 an age of revolution. 10:39 There was change in the air 10:41 but unless there are values presented, 10:44 unless people seek a positive direction 10:47 it will not go in a positive way. 10:50 When I look at Islam and the challenges that, 10:53 that faith has in coming to groups with itself 10:55 and to the modern world and relating to other religions 10:59 I hope and pray that the Arab Spring 11:02 turns into a new beginning not just the apocryphal story 11:06 about the law and his groan. 11:08 And I don't know where my law moral is 11:10 not a weedy patch of civil meltdown. 11:14 We need religious liberty spread far and wide 11:17 and matter of faith no matter of the political situation 11:21 and even the Arab Spring gone wrong 11:23 it can't go right eventually. |
Revised 2014-12-17