Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Robert Seiple
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000249A
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00:22 Welcome to Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is a program bringing you discussion, 00:26 news, views information and up-to-date information 00:29 that I hope you can use in your own life 00:32 as we discuss religious liberty issues 00:34 in the United States and around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor Liberty Magazine. 00:40 And my guest on the program is Dr. Robert Seiple, 00:45 who among many positions 00:47 though held the first ever post of ambassador-at-large 00:51 for Religious Freedom for the United States. 00:54 So that brings us instantly to our topic 00:57 discussing religious liberty. 00:59 And you bring so much experience on this. 01:01 But since you have left office of course 01:05 the so called Arab Spring has sprung. 01:08 It began a few years ago but now 01:10 we really into the follow on period 01:13 and how would you characterize 01:15 from what you know and what you have seen 01:17 and read like all of us on religious liberty 01:20 in that part of the world? 01:21 Is it improved or is it causality 01:23 or where are we? 01:26 Well, first of all 01:27 and since I left a state department in 2000 01:30 we also had the events of 9/11 01:34 which play into any forward looking history 01:39 but specifically to the Arab Spring 01:42 why would we call the Arab Spring. 01:43 We were optimistic about it. 01:45 We felt that this was a time of change. 01:48 And it turned out to be a time of change but-- 01:51 Revolutionary change. 01:52 Yeah-- Social meltdown in some ways. 01:54 Exactly. We weren't able to control events. 01:58 And part of that is all own mindset. 02:00 Part of that is how we operate as a country. 02:03 We have got people who feel they got four years 02:06 for their legacy or may be eight years for their legacy. 02:09 That's a short period of time. 02:11 I mean its taking us 238 years 02:13 to get to a present level of imperfection. Yeah. 02:16 In the United States and yet we are-- 02:18 Well, it's there and as you know-- 02:19 Five months ten months. This is a bit of burden upon. 02:24 I used to be a history major and then I turned to English 02:27 so I got a bit of mixture 02:29 but it does trouble me that history 02:31 began with the program far that sort of there is continuum 02:37 and the effort you talk about is really been a long one 02:41 through that English history which I think in some ways 02:44 is not just the history of the English people 02:46 it's the working out of Protestantism 02:49 through the Anglo Saxons. 02:52 But it took us a long time and we were expecting 02:55 in the Arab Spring 02:56 countries that were under colonial powers 03:00 and then despotisms of their own. 03:04 And they gonna sort of revert 03:05 to what through our culture took hundreds of years to refine. 03:10 And it's still a working process. isn't it? Yeah. 03:12 This would be more of a political statement 03:14 than a religious freedom statement. 03:15 But one of the things that's absolutely essential 03:18 when countries are convulsing 03:20 and they are changing from one to another 03:22 whether it's leadership, governance or whatever. 03:26 We've got to be predictable. 03:28 If we are gonna play the role of honest broker 03:31 may be even partner 03:32 we have to have a predictable game plan. 03:35 And this is again where our four and eight year 03:37 mindsets were changed. Yeah, right we did changed. 03:39 We don't, we don't have a long term view 03:42 and we don't have that long obedience 03:45 in the same direction that is necessary. 03:48 And any time you have 03:49 something that's less than certain 03:52 it just is like throwing gasoline on the fire. 03:55 So we are on both sides of the issue in Egypt. 04:00 We have been on both sides of the issue in Syria. 04:03 We have gone around and round with Iran 04:05 and who knows how that's going to get resolved. 04:08 But sometimes as you look at these things 04:11 you wonder are we, are we coherent, 04:15 are we steady, are we credible, 04:18 are we the honest broker, do we feel strongly both ways, 04:23 are we contributing to the problem 04:25 because we are kind of vacillating don't have-- 04:27 Well, let me throw something 04:28 and then you don't even have to give an answer 04:29 but may be you can nod or shake your head 04:32 but it seems to me you've represented the United States 04:36 through your office at that time 04:38 as an ambassador for Religious Freedom. 04:40 But often those high goals 04:42 that we do have in the society and through this government. 04:45 There are doubts with our national self interest 04:47 through other policies 04:50 and we are sort of talking out both sides of our mouth. 04:54 I have never understood how they can divorce, 04:57 how we could divorce national values 04:59 from national interest. 05:02 I wanted to see our national values 05:03 as part of our national interest. 05:05 Now I realize this is hard to implement 05:08 and you don't get many chances to do it well 05:11 and right but in George Bush's 05:14 and second inaugural address around the third paragraph 05:20 he makes the statement, "our national values 05:22 and our national interest are now one." 05:25 Everybody go, ha, ha, ha. How is he ever gonna do that? 05:28 Just moral rhetoric or political rhetoric you know-- 05:30 Do you think he implemented that? 05:31 Celebration. Well, let me give you an example. 05:34 In Uzbekistan in March of that year, 05:39 March through May they had some problems 05:42 with workers rights and workers began to rise up 05:47 against the governing structure. 05:49 Karimov the president of Uzbekistan 05:51 sent in the troupes 05:53 they killed somewhere between 500 and 1,500 Uzbeki. 06:00 George Bush said, we want an international investigation. 06:05 Karimov said, stay out it's none of your business. 06:08 We want an international investigation. 06:10 Karimov said, if you continue to push this point 06:14 we will kick your military base out of Uzbekistan. 06:18 Well, that was very important. I remember that. 06:20 That was national, that was national interest 06:23 because were fighting a war in Afghanistan. 06:25 George Bush went back and said, we will leave the base 06:28 we want an international investigation. 06:31 Well, that's the principle of the action. 06:33 Yeah, but tis hard. 06:34 It's hard. It's hard to do that. 06:36 It hard in a world where we got to be 06:40 interested in real politic 06:42 as well as our values but I still think that values 06:46 and interest can become one of the same. 06:48 It certainly can move closer together 06:50 and depends what you mean by national values 06:53 but if you're talking about biblical values 06:55 I think in this imperfect world it's almost impossible 07:00 for a secular regime to exemplify them 07:03 totally then we would have the kingdom of God on earth. 07:06 So you think that Satan wins? 07:08 I think Satan has got a stranglehold on this full. 07:10 Evil is gonna win out over good. 07:12 Well, and you know-- You don't believe that. 07:15 No, but it came to my mind rather than 07:18 when we are talking about how does that happened. 07:22 You know Christian people came to the new world 07:27 and their interest was to get a good deal, 07:29 get a foothold and they even though 07:31 they had Christian values they didn't have compunctions 07:34 about striking a very lopsided deal 07:36 with credulous natives. 07:38 And this is because it happened 300-years ago 07:40 it doesn't mean it has to happen. 07:41 Well, our interest is to get the best deal possible. 07:46 I don't see the US and I'm very pro US 07:48 I don't see it as a military power primarily. 07:50 In fact, I had a debate 07:52 with one of our religious liberty directors 07:54 James Sander said you know it very well, 07:56 on the way down on he has Sam Huntington 07:59 and we were talking about whether the US is empire. 08:02 And I said I don't think it is in the classic sense 08:04 what the US is parallel to is Venice. 08:07 It was a strong power that had a bit military over time 08:11 but it generally was a mercantile interest in it 08:13 manipulated world events to guarantee its markets. 08:18 And that's what we are about and it's not evil 08:20 but the national interest in doing that means 08:22 Commodore Perry sails into the harbor, 08:25 you know, trade with us the sorrels. 08:27 It means that when we deal with an other country 08:30 we have an interest that really involves us 08:33 getting the better deal of the business back. 08:36 And that's on easily reconcilable 08:39 with the ideal national interest 08:42 or national value of, you know, Christian charity 08:47 and concern for the fellowman. 08:49 I think there is an inherent conflict there. 08:51 Well, Christian is a conflict. Yeah. 08:53 I mean, the conflicts between good and evil 08:55 and that we have with us always 08:58 until the second coming. 09:00 But that doesn't mean we succumbed to it. 09:03 No, we need-- we shouldn't give in. 09:05 And, you know, there is no reason to give in. 09:08 I think that's where 09:10 the testimony of the individual Christian 09:13 has to rise up in faithfulness and obedience 09:17 and say now here we stand. 09:19 And I'm glad you brought that 09:21 because that's the point I wanted to make. 09:22 Yes, we could hope and as an aggregate of individual citizens 09:26 we can change and direct that national values such as country 09:31 but its starts and ends really with the individual. 09:33 We need to exemplify those values in our own role 09:37 and whether its going about a daily job 09:40 or as you have for a while or representing your country 09:43 you have those values. Yeah. 09:45 And you could put those into action 09:46 but to expect the government to somehow exemplify them. 09:49 I think that's could be disturbing illusion. 09:54 Inexpensive thought that's why it didn't bother me 09:56 when the prayer came out of the school. 09:59 Prayer should be in the home we should teach. 10:01 Good point. Yeah. 10:03 We don't want to wait for the government 10:04 to make a decision pro-war for against prayer. 10:08 We got to role to play 10:10 and the longer we wait 10:11 and the longer we expect government to do something 10:14 we are just giving away the store 10:15 when it comes to faith issues 10:17 and may be in many issues as well 10:19 but certainly faith issues. 10:21 Yeah, now a very good point. 10:23 So back to the Arab Spring. 10:25 Yes. 10:26 It has sprung and religion is a big part of it. 10:32 And the question I want to ask you is 10:34 have we inadvertently through things like 10:38 US intervention in Iraq and other 10:43 better be careful our characterize it 10:44 but other involvements in that part of the world. 10:47 Have we signaled or suggested 10:51 a new line of a religious intolerance 10:52 because it a significant to me that Christians 10:56 and other religious minorities 10:58 where a early casualty of the conflict in Iraq 11:01 in other word one million Christians there 11:03 and now they're down to 200,000. 11:05 And I notice that in Egypt the first signal of the 11:09 so called Arab Spring was-- 11:10 were attacks on Christians in Alexandria 11:13 or Coptic Christians and its serious same thing. 11:17 And I think majority of the refugees 11:20 at the moment are Christians. 11:22 They have been picked on by all factions. 11:26 A, that's true. 11:28 B, to ascribe it to role of the United States. 11:31 Well, I said may be I don't think it's definitely. 11:34 I think it's too strong. 11:35 The real religious battle going on in the Middle East 11:39 is between Sunni and Shia it's internal to Islam. 11:43 Yeah. 11:44 Islam is at war with self. 11:46 Now who gets caught in the middle? 11:48 Anybody who is in minority. 11:49 It could be a Baha'i. Yeah. 11:51 It could be almighty it could be Druze 11:55 but it also could be a Coptic Christian in Egypt. 11:58 Yeah And a Christian in Damascus 12:01 or a Christian any place else in the Middle East 12:04 but I think that's a one of the potential outcomes 12:10 of all this that would be absolutely tragic 12:13 when you take the Christian out of the place 12:17 where Christianity start. 12:18 Let me throw a really wild curve at you. 12:21 It's true the, Sunni, Shiite divide is huge in Islam 12:25 and it's all over the prophetic succession. 12:28 In other words who is the authority in Islam? 12:31 What tradition do you follow? 12:33 It seems to me that's no more ingrained 12:39 in that religious tradition than the reformation 12:42 divide in Christianity between the church of Rome 12:46 and the protestants over the church authority 12:49 and its role or rejecting the Pope and so on. 12:53 And I don't think it's all good 12:54 but we have reached the stage post reformation 12:57 where there is sort of a drift if not in the union 13:00 then in distinctions that are disappearing. 13:01 Are we to expect that drift in Islam, is that the solution? 13:05 And first of all in 2014 we are not killing each other because-- 13:08 Oh, no. 13:09 You know, there is difference in-- 13:10 Well, we did in the wars of religion in Europe 13:13 on post reformation there was 200 wars-- 13:16 200-years I think of war. Yeah. 13:19 And it may be that what we are seeing in Islam 13:22 is a following by two or three generations 13:26 or two or three centuries of what has happened. 13:28 I don't know I'm not prepared, 13:31 I don't even want to one of to say that 13:32 and probably would offend a lot people by saying that 13:35 but there is no question that we did things, 13:41 Christians did things to one and other 13:44 including breaking this under 13:46 that what became known as the reformation. 13:51 Which I'm not denigrating. 13:53 My church and yours for that matter these are direct 13:56 attacks of the reformation on very clear 13:59 understandings of scripture. 14:00 They went just you know parting of the ways 14:03 because it couldn't get along. 14:04 I mean, they were, they were deeply study differences 14:07 But there was a part of a group 14:08 that worked on bringing the two thoughts together 14:12 and Cardinal Cassidy was representing 14:15 the Catholic Church, 14:17 Chuck Olson and others were representing. 14:18 And yes and I think on a human level 14:21 some dialog is not only good it's necessary. 14:24 We will be back after short break 14:25 to continue this discussion very interesting. 14:28 The Arab Spring 14:29 and even reaching back to the reformation. 14:32 Stay with us. |
Revised 2014-12-17