Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Robert Seiple
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000247B
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00:06 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:08 Before the break with Ambassador Seiple 00:10 we were pretty much ranging the world 00:13 from trying to get into your perspective 00:15 as the first ambassador-at-large 00:17 for Religious Freedom for the United States. 00:20 And I know you had an incredible experience over many years 00:23 and before that with World Vision 00:24 as the president of the World Vision. 00:25 You were traveling the world and getting a sense of the pulse 00:29 of religious freedom and religious activities 00:31 around the world. 00:32 And we'd been talking about Europe. 00:34 In everyone's mind that's the, 00:35 the place of no religion isn't it. 00:38 But there're religious force there 00:41 and Bosnia and on the fringes of Europe 00:44 they're the Balkans reminded as 00:46 that it's the force to recon with. 00:48 I think we're keeping pretty good eye on Europe. 00:51 We took it right off in the middle of the 1900s 00:54 and then looked what happened 00:56 we had two world wars in that era. 00:59 And then we talk about Bosnia 01:01 I just continued to think that Bosnia 01:03 is the extension of not getting the aftermath 01:07 of World War II, right. 01:10 Slavenka Drakulic a writer writing in the Balkan Express 01:14 had a very chilling comment about Bosnia 01:18 as she looked back at that history 01:20 and realized what was taking place yet again in Europe. 01:24 She said "someone is always a Jew. 01:27 Someone is always a Jew 01:29 and once the concept of otherness 01:31 takes place the unimaginable becomes possible." 01:35 Yeah. There's a prophetic word. 01:37 Very deep way to state this, 01:41 the toxic side of religious conflict. 01:43 The world is not safe with diversity, yeah. 01:46 You know something that I'm sure you are aware 01:48 but probably most of our viewers haven't picked up 01:50 and because the media never say it. 01:54 We are on a war on terrorism its manifests itself 9/11 01:57 of course and follow up wars of the United States. 02:01 We are told over and over again the sense of, 02:05 of hurt from the Islamic world 02:07 things like troupes quartered in Saudi Arabia 02:10 and because the Middle East situation 02:12 and the unresolved Palestinian question. 02:15 But I pick up a lot in the material coming out 02:20 of that world that they've got extensive grievance 02:22 that they were badly done by in the Balkans 02:26 and the Muslims were victimized. 02:31 Now that's not the stance in the US 02:34 or our governments stance we fell-- 02:36 we feel that we tilted toward them 02:38 if there could be anything. 02:39 You know, we rescued the Muslim public. 02:43 Yes, I think I agree but that's not the way it perceived 02:46 in the Muslim world which is very-- 02:48 Well, In Kosovo as well 02:50 we can see the tilt in terms of natural disasters 02:54 where the United States has embodied itself. 02:59 I'm not sure any of these things 03:01 are going to really make the Islamic world 03:05 and it got to be careful because I don't want to categorize 03:09 1.7 billion people as having single mindset. 03:12 That's an intellectually lazy approach 03:15 and its hurt our relationship. 03:18 But even if we fix the Arab Israeli conflict 03:24 and the Palestinian state and so on. 03:26 Even if that gets fixed and we have had a handle it 03:29 I'm not sure any of these issues are going to go away. 03:31 No, probably no. 03:33 Ah, I think we have terrorism 03:37 probably on both sides of some of those issues. 03:40 And for an example as you get closed to the solution in Israel 03:45 you find some of the one throw an hand grenade, 03:48 someone blowing up a pizza parlor, 03:52 someone there is extremism on both sides. Yeah. 03:55 And the only way you get to an end result 03:58 is by upfront very early on a process saying 04:02 we are not going to let 04:04 a terrorist attack undo this negotiation. 04:07 It's too big. 04:09 And unfortunately once that person blows up 04:12 that pizza parlor nobody remembers how it started. 04:16 All they remember is that 04:18 the moderate voice is now silence 04:21 and it's us against them. Yeah. 04:23 And you're saying what I don't know 04:25 that I've said it on this program 04:26 but just as an observer I have lived most of my life in the US 04:30 so on one level I can I hope can't myself as an American 04:33 but I came from Australia 04:34 so, you know, I always have 04:36 a sort of a outsiders viewpoint on it. 04:39 And I think we have done ourselves 04:41 in a justice by responding 04:42 so frantically to terrorist things 04:47 because I think part of solution is to keep our cool 04:49 not to be terrorized, 04:52 because that's the whole point of these people. 04:53 They can't whether its Islamic terrorist 04:56 or before them they're go in the Haganah in Israel 04:59 with dealing the British or the groups in Northern Ireland. 05:03 All terrorist are a minority 05:05 are certainly not in a strong enough position 05:08 to win through their traditional way. 05:09 So they're hoping that they will panic a population 05:12 to lose their cool and to change their direction 05:14 obviously in their favor. 05:16 We don't really have, even though it's been said 05:19 a true existential threat from terrorism we have a disruption. 05:24 And our way of life I think can be protected by us 05:27 not subverted by then 05:29 if we hold on to our values and maintain our cool, 05:32 do certain things that's for the government do 05:34 but not go overboard, not throw 05:37 as you and I have talked a little 05:38 not through the civil liberties may be have with the bathwater. 05:42 We use to say often in the state department 05:44 we got to all work hard to prove Sam Huntington to the wrong. 05:47 Yeah. It's not a clash of civilization. 05:51 Didn't he die a couple of years ago? 05:52 He died without recanting. 05:55 I remember going to a lecture of his 05:57 and here I cam expound on this stuff. 05:59 Well, he would be a believer in the hands of the day 06:02 you suggested before that pessimist always has more facts. 06:06 And you can draw that negative solution that negative scenario, 06:10 you know very easily but I think you got to work very hard 06:12 so that it just doesn't happen. 06:14 And to do that there are two things 06:17 that absolutely have to happen 06:18 and they really very directly 06:21 to how ameliorate the religious freedom issue. 06:26 One is you have to understand your own faith. 06:29 And we can get into this on a big way 06:31 but we are soft in terms of our individual theologies. 06:35 We pick and chose, we have domesticated God, 06:38 we have got lot of things wrong about 06:40 and but we've got to understand why we believe what we believe. 06:43 You know, what you're arguing against 06:45 I think it's that shouldn't be a civil religion, 06:47 it shouldn't be a generic 06:49 national watered down version. I don't know. 06:51 If we need to have our own 06:53 deeply held views and stick with it. 06:55 I mean, Calvary tells us at least one thing 06:59 you never watered it down. 07:00 No. It didn't have a plan B. 07:02 I mean it was there and I was with that 07:03 what was gonna happening. 07:04 But the other thing in addition to understanding is our own 07:08 is respecting the other and we have a long way to go. 07:12 People have talked for decades 07:13 about how we have to tolerate the other 07:17 and that seems such a-- 07:19 I mean I tolerate people I don't know specially care for. 07:22 That's what I tolerate. 07:23 And tolerate is for now 07:25 but when there is a stress toleration disappears 07:27 and then you have got religious warfare 07:30 you have got interpersonal conflict. 07:33 Respect takes us in a totally different direction. 07:36 Respect is based on this communality 07:38 we have this all been created by, by God. 07:42 And the respect that we need to have 07:44 towards one and other comes out of that, 07:46 certainly for the, in the Judea Christian tradition. 07:49 Well, in the United States its interesting 07:52 I agree with you from the Judea Christian tradition 07:56 and our faith that should lead us 07:57 to regard the other as this is important as our 08:01 but the US is the society 08:03 and its government I think is drawing 08:05 just as heavily from a secular almost the human-- 08:08 well, not almost very much a humanistic 08:11 appreciation of the dignity, 08:12 inherent dignity of man as a sentient being. 08:15 And perhaps when you were dealing with other countries 08:19 couldn't you invoke that this as a effectively 08:21 as your own biblical viewpoint 08:25 because when you dealing with the Hindu 08:27 or a Buddhist country 08:30 I mean they might like what you're saying 08:32 from that point of view but its not necessarily 08:33 automatically persuades it 08:35 but we can appeal to a common humanity can't we 08:38 and just the rights that are living a being has. 08:41 Well, I'm saying for everyone understand your own faith 08:44 at its deepest and richest blessed. 08:46 And if you're person of no faith 08:49 understand how you got there at the deepest and richest best. 08:52 So it includes all faiths and none. 08:56 And then know enough about your neighbor 08:58 in order to show at respect 08:59 and I know that's a big bite of the apple 09:02 but if we could find a way 09:03 to take that big bite of the apple 09:05 we would eliminate sectarian strife in the world. 09:07 Think about it. 09:08 We would eliminate sectarian strife 09:10 there will be no more religious wars. 09:12 We would have respect for one another. 09:14 We don't cross over the differences, 09:16 we don't compromise who we are, 09:18 we don't put ourselves on any slippery slope. 09:21 All we do is understand why we believe what we believe. 09:23 It sounds captivating when you say that 09:25 and of course as well as an optimist you're realists 09:28 I don't think we going likely to eliminate sectarian war 09:31 but it would be a wonderful goal to work toward wouldn't it, 09:34 we need to. Oh, yeah. 09:35 Because reverse is a sectarian abyss. 09:38 Its Armageddon, isn't it. 09:40 It's not literally biblically then figuratively true. 09:43 But you sound a little bit like to person who says the poor 09:46 we have with us always. 09:47 It's a biblical admonition. No, it's not an admonition. 09:50 We can't be status quo. 09:52 It may be in point of realism 09:54 but that doesn't take the burden off our behaviors to change. 09:57 So that's wonderful that after this experience 10:00 dealing with many issues many countries 10:03 you're really got this, this biblical optimism. 10:06 When we talk about religious conflict 10:08 and the need for religious liberty. 10:10 Yes we did not have the biblical optimism, 10:13 if I did not have biblical optimism, 10:16 you know, I would be the world's worst pessimist. 10:19 But there is something tangible that gives my hope credibility. 10:24 Hope is the expectation that tomorrows reality 10:27 is gonna be better 10:28 but its important to have something tangible 10:30 in the present that points towards that expectation 10:34 that the resurrection does that familiar. Absolutely. 10:37 And working in religious liberty it may not be better 10:39 left to its own devices but the opposition 10:43 and others even some of our viewers 10:46 they have the ability to be part of a grand swirl 10:49 to turn back this intolerance 10:51 and this lack of religious liberty in practice around. 10:54 Understand your own faith at its deepest and richest best. 10:59 And so, so just in a capsule 11:02 what could you say about your time as 11:05 ambassador-at-large for religious liberty. 11:07 What was the key to, in your mind carrying that through? 11:11 What did you need to keep in mind? 11:14 I think what you always have to keep in mind 11:16 what you always have to see is the face of the person 11:19 who is to use the metaphor of Good Samaritan. 11:23 A person who is lying on the side of the road beaten 11:25 and bruised that has to be your motivation, 11:28 that has to be why you do what you do. 11:30 Why I did what I did. 11:34 In presenting religious liberty is always a tension 11:39 between the different goals we are trying to communicate. 11:42 You know, when I look at the life of Jesus 11:44 I can see that it's easy to focus 11:46 on the woe on the Scribes and the Pharisees 11:50 and perhaps just as easy to forget that Jesus 11:53 when He spoke to the women taken in sin 11:55 He said "neither do I condemn thee 11:57 go and sin no more." 11:59 When we talk about religious liberty 12:02 we should be airing on the side of compassion and consideration. 12:07 Obviously, some of this field 12:09 that we have more truth than others 12:11 that's inherent in any belief system 12:13 as well as human nature. 12:15 But we need to understand 12:16 no matter where we are talking about 12:18 whether we are traveling in the Far East 12:20 or the South East Asia or the United States 12:24 but we need to represent 12:26 true values of understanding a freedom, 12:30 a spiritual self determination 12:33 and borrowing from the Bible 12:36 as it says "against such there is no law. 12:40 There must be a higher law 12:42 that guides that principles of religious freedom." 12:45 The law of liberty is purported I believe. 12:51 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17