Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), J. Brent Walker
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000246B
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00:05 Welcome back.
00:06 Before the break with guest Brent Walker 00:10 we were talking about religion in the schools 00:13 and the constraints that might be upon the public school system 00:16 I really should qualify that. 00:17 It's not all schools, the church school. Yeah. 00:19 Its not only allowed they're required 00:22 if I'm paying the tuition I want my children 00:24 to have religious instruction and of course 00:26 any private school is free 00:27 to do what they want on religious liberty. 00:28 Absolutely. 00:30 But in the public schools we need to be very careful that, 00:33 that public money and the authority of the state 00:36 is not used to direct to control 00:38 or even demand a certain religious people. 00:41 You know, I was making the point before the break 00:43 how much sympathy I have for principles and teachers 00:46 and administrators to try to, try to walk that line. 00:50 And, you know, if they go too far one way 00:52 and include too much religion and state sponsorship religion 00:55 and then you got the ACLJ youth threatening to sue them. 00:58 If they go too far the other way and deny student expression 01:02 of religion unreasonably you have got 01:04 the ACLJ the American Center for Law and Justice. 01:07 On the other side. 01:08 So they are kind of caught in between 01:10 and I can sympathize but, but there is a whole reservoir 01:13 of activities as we have said that can, can occur 01:17 without fear of being called in the court 01:20 because it's pretty, pretty well settled 01:22 that those activities of student expressed religion 01:26 are perfectly permissible. 01:27 And its also worth saying it's often said 01:29 but there is a good time to throw it in. 01:31 I think parents in a society that expect 01:34 the school to do it all for them. 01:35 I'm missing a bit of the point. 01:37 The primary place to get religion is in the home 01:39 and in the church social environment if think it, 01:45 don't get it there that's only the-- 01:47 even if the public school could give it, 01:49 it would be of limited value and probably counter productive. 01:52 Yeah, yeah. 01:53 But I want to discuss a little bit we have a few minutes left. 01:58 It's connected with this 01:59 but they've been several court challenges 02:02 and Supreme Court has even entered into it previous years 02:05 but I saw one come up recently after our use of school, 02:10 public school property for religious clubs 02:13 I think the one recently it was a church group that wanted 02:15 to rent a school and use it after as. 02:20 And sometimes the schools sometimes the towns get 02:23 very officious about it and say that they can't allow it 02:29 and it would seem to me and I think the court see 02:31 as long as, you know, there is no favoritism 02:33 as long as it's open to any group renting it, 02:36 as long as it's not connected with the religious 02:38 I mean, the civil instruction it shouldn't be a problem. 02:40 Yeah, I think its there is general rule. 02:42 There're have been several cases 02:43 and some have gone in different directions 02:47 because of the peculiarities of the facts of the case 02:50 but generally speaking on the weekends Saturdays or Sundays, 02:54 you know, when you've locked the doors on Friday 02:55 and even not gonna open them up for the school 02:57 again into a Monday morning it's just a building. 03:00 And as long as the rules are fair 03:03 and religious groups are welcomed 03:05 on the same basis as other communities group 03:09 charge the same rents so forth treat it favorite more favorably 03:12 but same then generally speaking its okay. 03:16 And I think that's the better rule there have been challenges 03:20 particularly where the arrangement becomes permanent. 03:23 You know mostly at time most-- 03:24 And it tend to be might be a favoritism. 03:25 Yeah, and it kind of looks like a merger of church 03:29 and state when they are there for good. 03:31 And that may have been the recent case 03:32 that I saw it's probably. 03:33 Yeah, I think that was one in the Brookdale. 03:36 Yeah I thought it was New York but I wasn't the case. 03:37 Now you've right. 03:38 I think that's one you're which you're remembering 03:41 but that had turned into a permanent arrangement. 03:44 You know most of the time this happens when 03:46 it's a new church plant that they don't have a building yet 03:49 or it's a growing church and they're building a new building 03:51 and they want some place to need for six months or a year. 03:55 And I think that's fine. 03:58 When did from what you know 04:01 when did education change from being largely a community 04:05 usualy church directed structure to the state taking over to. 04:12 I'm not sure exactly when it was 04:13 my impression was mid 19th century maybe, 04:17 may be little bit earlier. 04:18 It certainly senses the establishment 04:20 of the American republic. 04:21 Oh, yes, yes, yes. No, back in 1789. 04:23 In all of the major Yale and Harvard 04:28 they were all religious institutions to start with. 04:29 Yeah, there were, there were no public 04:33 I mean public secondary, primary and secondary schools 04:36 until well after the constitution. 04:38 But the point I'm trying to make that most people miss 04:41 why did the churches control education, 04:46 because it was to inculcate religious values. 04:49 Why does the state have schools it, 04:52 to inculcate state values to suite the citizen 04:57 to the needs of he state which is not necessarily sinister. 05:00 But it's clearly the case. Right, right. 05:02 Its not just altruism 05:05 its to especially in our modern societies 05:08 when we have economic needs, we have factory production, 05:14 we have scientific endeavors that the state 05:16 has an overarching interest to once to suite its citizens 05:22 for its own purposes and its own purposes 05:24 in a true democracy in outgrowth the group thinking 05:27 because its true but its not altruism. 05:30 And I really think that mixes into this discussion 05:33 on religion in the schools. 05:36 It's like there is sort of benevolent society 05:39 and religion as a good thing. 05:41 We need to realize the state is, 05:42 is inherently biased as it comes to this endeavor. 05:46 Yeah. 05:47 Well, you know, it's obliged to be neutral 05:50 I mean you can't always be perfectly neutral. 05:51 Well, on religion it's obliged to be neutral 05:53 because it shouldn't be it shouldn't be an interest. 05:55 That's really my point. 05:56 Yes, yes and it is teaching state now youth 05:58 but as we have said it can also teach about religion 06:01 and its role in. 06:02 Lot of information would be doing a service 06:04 to its citizenry to be conversant 06:06 on something as important as religion. 06:08 Yeah, so yes the state schools can teach about religion 06:11 and religious values but also the religious schools 06:15 of the 19th century that we have talked about 06:18 also taught to read and write arithmetic 06:20 for purposes other than inculcate religious values. 06:24 So I'm not sure you can make that. 06:25 No, it's not a clear distinction. 06:26 That I thought and I-- 06:27 It's just been a shift that's the point of me. 06:29 Yeah, more of an emphasis from one to the other. 06:32 And I don't know if its struck you as interesting 06:35 may be I'm looking at it from a Adventist perspective 06:39 because some of our institutions are facing challenges 06:43 that are not unique but they reflect particularly 06:47 to our Adventist perspective but I see on occasion 06:50 more and more religious institutions perhaps anxious 06:54 to get government funds trying 06:57 to define themselves as less than religion-- 06:59 Religious. Sure yeah. 07:01 And I don't know where that will land 07:03 in the biggest scheme of things but is it, 07:05 is it I don't know is it just more of the same moving away 07:10 from a religious sensibility or will it circle around. 07:14 And I don't know but it's a not phenomenon. 07:16 Well, I think it has a lot to do wanting the money 07:20 and, you know, when you start going 07:21 that road then you're losing your mission in many ways. 07:24 That's one reason why the Baptist Joint Committee 07:27 has always opposed vouchers and other forms of aid 07:30 to pervasively religious primary and secondary school. 07:34 With two-and-a-half minutes to go. 07:36 Oh, no. 07:37 You go to the topic that we could have several programs. 07:40 And then when I started with Liberty. 07:41 No I'm glad to put that. No, no, no. 07:43 But when I started with Liberty Magazine 07:45 we were full into the voucher displayed 07:48 that the background the tone of the millennium. 07:50 And it seems like we lost it. 07:53 In fact, I remember the most telling statement 07:56 on this it was Marvin Olasky 07:59 that the editor of Christianity Today. 08:02 He was very in favor of the Bush-- 08:05 I think World Magazine. 08:06 World Magazine well, yes. 08:08 He is World Magazine but I think he was 08:10 with Christianity anyhow it was Marvin Olasky 08:12 and he was trying to push through 08:15 the faith based initiative-- 08:17 Bush very much in favor of that. 08:19 And he said very telling he says 08:20 "it may be necessary voucherize it." 08:23 Because by that point tipped over a vouchers were acceptable 08:27 and now this was the leading edge 08:29 and voucher is not immoral but I think they tend to, 08:33 to corrupt a bit because its sort of easy money 08:35 and, you know, Christians asked and yet under the radar 08:38 almost the government is funding often religious citizenship. 08:42 And it's an iron law of American politics 08:43 they would government funds even in voucharized forms 08:47 government always, always, always seeks to regulate. 08:50 It's sort of an iron law of money. 08:52 Yeah, well true. 08:53 And my kids one will learn the other dollar. 08:55 Well, that's mine now, you know, 08:56 they have vested interest in what was hope with that dollar. 08:59 And that's harmful I think to, 09:01 you know, to mission of the church. 09:03 And the autonomy of the religious body 09:06 and explains as you've mentioned why they tend 09:09 to secularize or appear to secularize their curriculum 09:13 and in order to qualify for that. 09:15 Thank you for brining that up. 09:16 You know, I think very few of our viewers are listening 09:18 really long term will have even remember vouches. 09:21 But it's a part of the story the ongoing tale of trying 09:25 to keep the separation of church and state 09:28 its not the end of the game but it was the one phenomenon 09:30 and I think the end result of it is sort of formalized 09:34 have not any perpetually but formalize on ongoing funding 09:38 of the state of church schools in our church programs. 09:42 So where do we go with this. 09:44 Where do you think things are looking good for the schools? 09:46 Yeah, I think so, I think we're getting, 09:48 getting the point in finding out 09:50 that religion in the public schools has its place 09:53 and needs to be done correctly. 09:56 We don't want the government getting involved 09:58 in promulgating religious messages or teaching religion 10:02 but we do want to encourage students 10:03 to exercise their religion in a way it satisfies themselves 10:07 but its not disruptive of the education. 10:11 Educating young people 10:12 is a primary responsibility for any society. 10:16 In the context to religion it's a vital importance. 10:20 You know, I read in my Bible 10:21 the Jesus was trained by His mother. 10:23 He was tested by the wise men in the temple. 10:29 I read too that in the Old Testament times 10:33 the school of the prophets was a venue that trained young men 10:38 to understand religion and to take part in society. 10:41 But in our society as civil secular society 10:45 we can't presume on the state 10:48 in fact, it will be dangerous for the state 10:50 to be try teaching religious values. 10:53 What we need to see from the state is impartiality 10:57 and an allowance for the home for the individual family 11:01 and community environment to teach religious values 11:06 and we need to realize that this cannot be complicated 11:12 by a state inserting itself. 11:14 It needs to be simplified and encouraged in the community, 11:18 in the home, in the society for a just 11:21 and moral and righteous nation 11:24 and a society that respects religion. 11:28 For Liberty Insider I'm Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17