Welcome back.
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Before the break
with guest Brent Walker
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we were talking about
religion in the schools
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and the constraints that might
be upon the public school system
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I really should qualify that.
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It's not all schools,
the church school. Yeah.
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Its not only
allowed they're required
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if I'm paying the
tuition I want my children
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to have religious
instruction and of course
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any private school is free
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to do what they want
on religious liberty.
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Absolutely.
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But in the public schools we
need to be very careful that,
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that public money and
the authority of the state
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is not used to direct to control
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or even demand a
certain religious people.
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You know, I was making
the point before the break
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how much sympathy I have
for principles and teachers
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and administrators to try
to, try to walk that line.
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And, you know, if
they go too far one way
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and include too much religion
and state sponsorship religion
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and then you got the ACLJ
youth threatening to sue them.
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If they go too far the other
way and deny student expression
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of religion
unreasonably you have got
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the ACLJ the American
Center for Law and Justice.
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On the other side.
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So they are kind
of caught in between
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and I can sympathize but,
but there is a whole reservoir
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of activities as we
have said that can, can occur
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without fear of
being called in the court
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because it's
pretty, pretty well settled
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that those activities of
student expressed religion
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are perfectly permissible.
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And its also worth
saying it's often said
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but there is a good
time to throw it in.
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I think parents in
a society that expect
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the school to
do it all for them.
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I'm missing a bit of the point.
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The primary place to
get religion is in the home
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and in the church
social environment if think it,
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don't get it
there that's only the--
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even if the public
school could give it,
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it would be of limited value
and probably counter productive.
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Yeah, yeah.
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But I want to discuss a little
bit we have a few minutes left.
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It's connected with this
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but they've been
several court challenges
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and Supreme Court has even
entered into it previous years
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but I saw one come up recently
after our use of school,
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public school
property for religious clubs
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I think the one recently it
was a church group that wanted
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to rent a school
and use it after as.
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And sometimes the
schools sometimes the towns get
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very officious about it and
say that they can't allow it
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and it would seem to me
and I think the court see
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as long as, you know,
there is no favoritism
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as long as it's open
to any group renting it,
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as long as it's not
connected with the religious
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I mean, the civil instruction
it shouldn't be a problem.
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Yeah, I think its
there is general rule.
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There're have been several cases
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and some have gone
in different directions
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because of the peculiarities
of the facts of the case
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but generally speaking on the
weekends Saturdays or Sundays,
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you know, when you've
locked the doors on Friday
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and even not gonna
open them up for the school
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again into a Monday
morning it's just a building.
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And as long as
the rules are fair
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and religious
groups are welcomed
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on the same basis as
other communities group
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charge the same rents so forth
treat it favorite more favorably
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but same then
generally speaking its okay.
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And I think that's the better
rule there have been challenges
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particularly where the
arrangement becomes permanent.
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You know mostly at time most--
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And it tend to be
might be a favoritism.
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Yeah, and it kind of
looks like a merger of church
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and state when
they are there for good.
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And that may have
been the recent case
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that I saw it's probably.
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Yeah, I think that
was one in the Brookdale.
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Yeah I thought it was New
York but I wasn't the case.
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Now you've right.
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I think that's one
you're which you're remembering
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but that had turned
into a permanent arrangement.
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You know most of the
time this happens when
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it's a new church plant that
they don't have a building yet
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or it's a growing church and
they're building a new building
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and they want some place to
need for six months or a year.
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And I think that's fine.
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When did from what you know
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when did education change
from being largely a community
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usualy church directed structure
to the state taking over to.
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I'm not sure exactly when it was
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my impression was
mid 19th century maybe,
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may be little bit earlier.
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It certainly
senses the establishment
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of the American republic.
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Oh, yes, yes,
yes. No, back in 1789.
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In all of the
major Yale and Harvard
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they were all religious
institutions to start with.
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Yeah, there were,
there were no public
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I mean public secondary,
primary and secondary schools
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until well after
the constitution.
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But the point I'm trying
to make that most people miss
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why did the
churches control education,
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because it was to
inculcate religious values.
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Why does the
state have schools it,
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to inculcate state
values to suite the citizen
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to the needs of he state which
is not necessarily sinister.
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But it's clearly
the case. Right, right.
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Its not just altruism
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its to especially
in our modern societies
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when we have economic needs,
we have factory production,
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we have scientific
endeavors that the state
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has an overarching interest
to once to suite its citizens
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for its own
purposes and its own purposes
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in a true democracy in
outgrowth the group thinking
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because its true
but its not altruism.
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And I really think that
mixes into this discussion
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on religion in the schools.
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It's like there is
sort of benevolent society
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and religion as a good thing.
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We need to realize the state is,
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is inherently biased as
it comes to this endeavor.
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Yeah.
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Well, you know, it's
obliged to be neutral
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I mean you can't
always be perfectly neutral.
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Well, on religion
it's obliged to be neutral
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because it shouldn't be
it shouldn't be an interest.
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That's really my point.
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Yes, yes and it is
teaching state now youth
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but as we have said it
can also teach about religion
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and its role in.
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Lot of information
would be doing a service
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to its
citizenry to be conversant
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on something as
important as religion.
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Yeah, so yes the state
schools can teach about religion
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and religious values but
also the religious schools
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of the 19th century
that we have talked about
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also taught to read
and write arithmetic
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for purposes other than
inculcate religious values.
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So I'm not sure
you can make that.
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No, it's not a
clear distinction.
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That I thought and I--
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It's just been a shift
that's the point of me.
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Yeah, more of an
emphasis from one to the other.
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And I don't know if its
struck you as interesting
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may be I'm looking at it
from a Adventist perspective
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because some of our institutions
are facing challenges
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that are not unique but
they reflect particularly
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to our Adventist perspective
but I see on occasion
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more and more religious
institutions perhaps anxious
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to get government funds trying
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to define themselves
as less than religion--
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Religious. Sure yeah.
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And I don't know
where that will land
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in the biggest
scheme of things but is it,
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is it I don't know is it just
more of the same moving away
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from a religious sensibility
or will it circle around.
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And I don't know but
it's a not phenomenon.
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Well, I think it has a
lot to do wanting the money
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and, you know,
when you start going
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that road then you're losing
your mission in many ways.
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That's one reason why
the Baptist Joint Committee
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has always opposed
vouchers and other forms of aid
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to pervasively religious
primary and secondary school.
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With
two-and-a-half minutes to go.
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Oh, no.
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You go to the topic that we
could have several programs.
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And then when I
started with Liberty.
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No I'm glad to
put that. No, no, no.
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But when I started
with Liberty Magazine
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we were full into
the voucher displayed
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that the background
the tone of the millennium.
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And it seems like we lost it.
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In fact, I remember
the most telling statement
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on this it was Marvin Olasky
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that the editor of
Christianity Today.
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He was very in
favor of the Bush--
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I think World Magazine.
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World Magazine well, yes.
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He is World
Magazine but I think he was
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with Christianity
anyhow it was Marvin Olasky
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and he was
trying to push through
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the faith based initiative--
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Bush very much in favor of that.
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And he said very telling he says
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"it may be
necessary voucherize it."
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Because by that point tipped
over a vouchers were acceptable
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and now this
was the leading edge
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and voucher is not immoral
but I think they tend to,
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to corrupt a bit
because its sort of easy money
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and, you know, Christians
asked and yet under the radar
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almost the government is funding
often religious citizenship.
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And it's an iron
law of American politics
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they would government
funds even in voucharized forms
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government always, always,
always seeks to regulate.
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It's sort of an
iron law of money.
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Yeah, well true.
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And my kids one will
learn the other dollar.
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Well, that's mine now, you know,
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they have vested interest in
what was hope with that dollar.
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And that's harmful I think to,
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you know, to
mission of the church.
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And the autonomy
of the religious body
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and explains as you've
mentioned why they tend
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to secularize or appear to
secularize their curriculum
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and in order to
qualify for that.
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Thank you for brining that up.
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You know, I think very few
of our viewers are listening
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really long term will
have even remember vouches.
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But it's a part of the
story the ongoing tale of trying
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to keep the
separation of church and state
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its not the end of the game
but it was the one phenomenon
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and I think the end result
of it is sort of formalized
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have not any perpetually
but formalize on ongoing funding
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of the state of church
schools in our church programs.
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So where do we go with this.
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Where do you think things are
looking good for the schools?
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Yeah, I think so, I
think we're getting,
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getting the point in finding out
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that religion in the
public schools has its place
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and needs to be done correctly.
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We don't want the
government getting involved
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in promulgating religious
messages or teaching religion
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but we do want to
encourage students
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to exercise their religion
in a way it satisfies themselves
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but its not
disruptive of the education.
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Educating young people
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is a primary
responsibility for any society.
00:10:12.85\00:10:16.31
In the context to religion
it's a vital importance.
00:10:16.34\00:10:19.99
You know, I read in my Bible
00:10:20.02\00:10:21.09
the Jesus was
trained by His mother.
00:10:21.12\00:10:23.61
He was tested by the
wise men in the temple.
00:10:23.64\00:10:29.09
I read too that in
the Old Testament times
00:10:29.12\00:10:33.22
the school of the prophets was
a venue that trained young men
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to understand religion
and to take part in society.
00:10:38.61\00:10:41.76
But in our society
as civil secular society
00:10:41.79\00:10:45.89
we can't presume on the state
00:10:45.92\00:10:48.27
in fact, it will be
dangerous for the state
00:10:48.30\00:10:50.35
to be try
teaching religious values.
00:10:50.38\00:10:52.99
What we need to see from
the state is impartiality
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and an allowance for the
home for the individual family
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and community environment
to teach religious values
00:11:01.90\00:11:06.41
and we need to realize
that this cannot be complicated
00:11:06.44\00:11:12.20
by a state inserting itself.
00:11:12.23\00:11:14.47
It needs to be simplified
and encouraged in the community,
00:11:14.50\00:11:18.47
in the home, in
the society for a just
00:11:18.50\00:11:21.85
and moral and righteous nation
00:11:21.88\00:11:24.45
and a society
that respects religion.
00:11:24.48\00:11:28.57
For Liberty
Insider I'm Lincoln Steed.
00:11:28.60\00:11:32.55